Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Also, low information people sometimes take assumptive shorcuts when it comes to their family trees and ethnic origins. Often based on their preferences and leanings too.

I knew a guy about 20 years ago whose name was Basque. He absolutely hated francophones. Couldn't stand them. Anyway, he used to say that he was of "Basque" ethnic origin. Of course, the name Basque is totally of francophone Canadian origin, borne by a number of Acadiens and Québécois.

If he truly were Basque, his name would have been Euskaldun or something.

Similarly, someone whose last name is "French" probably is primarily of British and not French origin.

"French" as a family name almost always is of Irish origin. But I've read that it can also be of English or even French origin as names can be changed or altered.

I believe that French is more likely to be found in Newfoundland of anywhere in Canada but of course is found throughout much of our country.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes, Canada at the time did not want that, even though the Catholic church in Quebec for a time tried to establish a francophone population corridor north from Montreal into Abitibi in NW Quebec and then into northern Ontario towards Manitoba to join up with the Franco-Manitobans who were in difficulty. It did get as far as just west of Hearst Ontario before it ran out of steam. Francophone population patters still reflect this today, and if you look at a map of language groups in Canada (with French speakers indicated in blue) you can clearly see a line of blue pointing towards Manitoba in northern Ontario.

But as I said, the federal government did not want this. During that period transportation was made cheaper from Ukraine to Western Canada than from Montreal.

While Hearst ON is the best known "far West" settlement being 90% francophone and still within Cochrane District, a lot of people don't know that francophones settled further west in Thunder Bay District in significant numbers. The is a big gap between Hearst and places to the West but the towns Longlac and Nakina are about 1/3 francophone and Geraldton about 1/4 francophone. All those places including some other towns are part of the Municipality of Greenstone. I work with people from all of those towns and the quality of French of the francophone populations there tends to be quite impressive considering how cut off and isolated they are. Interestingly as well, many people in those towns as well as Hearst still have pretty close ties with Quebec.

Another majority francophone community that is fairly to the West is Dubreuilville which is North of Wawa but was settled by people from Quebec's Abitibi Region in the 1940s and 1950s and still has very close ties with Quebec as people still move there today from there.

And the westernmost community with a sizable francophone population is Ignace in Kenora District where about 10-15% of residents speak French at home. I don't know the history of settlement there but it's the only place along Hwy 17 between Nipigon and the Manitoba border that has bilingual highway signs.

[New Brisavoine]

^^Coeur d'Alene in Idaho is a reminder that the French went much further west than that. I have a friend who vacations there every year. Recently I discovered a French placename even further west, in Oregon, the Deschutes County, named after the river. All these long predate the arrival of the English in Canada of course.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

While Hearst ON is the best known "far West" settlement being 90% francophone and still within Cochrane District, a lot of people don't know that francophones settled further west in Thunder Bay District in significant numbers. The is a big gap between Hearst and places to the West but the towns Longlac and Nakina are about 1/3 francophone and Geraldton about 1/4 francophone. All those places including some other towns are part of the Municipality of Greenstone. I work with people from all of those towns and the quality of French of the francophone populations there tends to be quite impressive considering how cut off and isolated they are. Interestingly as well, many people in those towns as well as Hearst still have pretty close ties with Quebec.

Another majority francophone community that is fairly to the West is Dubreuilville which is North of Wawa but was settled by people from Quebec's Abitibi Region in the 1940s and 1950s and still has very close ties with Quebec as people still move there today from there.

And the westernmost community with a sizable francophone population is Ignace in Kenora District where about 10-15% of residents speak French at home. I don't know the history of settlement there but it's the only place along Hwy 17 between Nipigon and the Manitoba border that has bilingual highway signs.

Yes I had the Geraldton and Nakina area in mind when I said "just west of Hearst"! Even though they're over 300 km apart. Though in Northern Ontario terms, that's quite close!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

^^Coeur d'Alene in Idaho is a reminder that the French went much further west than that. I have a friend who vacations there every year. Recently I discovered a French placename even further west, in Oregon, the Deschutes County, named after the river. All these long predate the arrival of the English in Canada of course.

French explorers travelled through much of the American West and named a lot of stuff there, including of course the Grand Teton Mountains.

But in terms of actual settlements the furthest west they got was the Midwest region, in states like Wisconsin, Illinois and Missouri. Even there they were quite small and few and far between. But yes, we were there at one point!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

"French" as a family name almost always is of Irish origin. But I've read that it can also be of English or even French origin as names can be changed or altered.

I believe that French is more likely to be found in Newfoundland of anywhere in Canada but of course is found throughout much of our country.

I count the Irish as "British", at least in historic terms when discussing the ethnicity of settlers to North America.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I count the Irish as "British", at least in historic terms when discussing the ethnicity of settlers to North America.

The Irish would vehemently disagree.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The Irish would vehemently disagree.

I'm not the one who placed them in the British Isles geographically, or made them part of the UK until 100 years ago.

[kool maudit]

Sure, the passport stamps (or whatever they did) might have been British during the emigration years, but they're a different people.

Surely if Quebec one day achieves independence, they will not view Quebecois of these times as "Canadians". They will view them as "Quebecois who were miscategorized but we sorted it out".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Sure, the passport stamps (or whatever they did) might have been British during the emigration years, but they're a different people.

.

I know but how different would they have been, 100-150 years ago, compared to say the Scots or even the Welsh?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Surely if Quebec one day achieves independence, they will not view Quebecois of these times as "Canadians". They will view them as "Quebecois who were miscategorized but we sorted it out".

It depends on where in the world you'd find yourself.

100 years on, I am not sure that people will be more up on the fine details of what happened historically in Quebec-Canada on the other side of the world.

We still refer to Moravians, Prussians, Galicians, Soviets, etc., at least in the historical context.

[Acajack]

I still think that in the context of sources of immigration to Canada prior to the 1920s, it makes historical sense to include the Irish under the label "British Isles". Especially when one considers the socialization of Irish immigrants who blended in quite a bit with the English and Scots once settled in Canada.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I still think that in the context of sources of immigration to Canada prior to the 1920s, it makes historical sense to include the Irish under the label "British Isles". Especially when one considers the socialization of Irish immigrants who blended in quite a bit with the English and Scots once settled in Canada.

"British Isles" yes, but "British" no.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

But in terms of actual settlements the furthest west they got was the Midwest region, in states like Wisconsin, Illinois and Missouri. Even there they were quite small and few and far between.

There were some French coureurs des bois living further west than that. Not in settlements, but among the Indians.

It's quite clear that without the British conquest, all of the West would have become if not French, at least Francophone. The British conquest blocked the westward expansion of the French Canadians, forcing more than a million of them to migrate south to Anglophone US states. Long term this was far more detrimental to the Francophone North America than the temporary Anglo domination of Québec.

[MolsonExport]

^There were less than 70,000 people in New France at the time of the British conquest. In 1754, New France's population consisted of 10,000 Acadians, 55,000 Canadiens, and about 4,000 settlers in upper and lower Louisiana; 69,000 in total.

"forcing more than a million of them to migrate south" is complete revisionist history.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Sure, the passport stamps (or whatever they did) might have been British during the emigration years, but they're a different people.

They ditched their own language and adopted the English language though. It's as if the Finns had abandoned the Finnish language and became all Swedish speakers.

And the Republic of Ireland is aligned with the UK in many ways than not. All of their street and road signage and markings is essentially British. You'd imagine you're somewhere in the English midlands when you're in an Irish city. Recently I even discovered to my amazement that one of their top public authority is still British headquartered in London (can't remember which it is now, perhaps the quango overseeing their public television). Can you imagine a major public body regulating part of Canadian life being a US administration in Washington DC??

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

There were some French coureurs des bois living further west than that. Not in settlements, but among the Indians.

It's quite clear that without the British conquest, all of the West would have become if not French, at least Francophone. The British conquest blocked the westward expansion of the French Canadians, forcing more than a million of them to migrate south to Anglophone US states. Long term this was far more detrimental to the Francophone North America than the temporary Anglo domination of Québec.

More likely, istm, that U.S. Manifest Destiny would have seen much of the West taken by the USofA.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I know but how different would they have been, 100-150 years ago, compared to say the Scots or even the Welsh?

Religion! Very different. It's the only thing that kept them apart after they adopted the English language. Without Catholicism, obviously they'd be just like Scotland today, an unhappy part of the UK.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Surely if Quebec one day achieves independence, they will not view Quebecois of these times as "Canadians". They will view them as "Quebecois who were miscategorized but we sorted it out".

It's more complicated than that because the Québécois were the original "Canadiens", whereas the Irish were never the original British. The British were the Celtic people who inhabited Great Britain, and who later were Germanized by the Angles and the Saxon invaders (but part of them escaped on the continent where they remained Celtic and became known as the "Bretons", much later Frenchified).

The Irish have a complete different origin. Their Celtic language was quite different from the Brittonic Celtic languages.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

It's quite clear that without the British conquest, all of the West would have become if not French, at least Francophone. The British conquest blocked the westward expansion of the French Canadians, forcing more than a million of them to migrate south to Anglophone US states. Long term this was far more detrimental to the Francophone North America than the temporary Anglo domination of Québec.

God damned fucking anglophones. Worse than the Nazis...........

You certainly have a burr under your saddle.