Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Americans or people with Canadian ancestry born in the US? Probably lots of Mr Tremblay born in Maine who moved to Québec in those figures... You're far less likely to find a Mr Jackson born in Alabama moving to Winnipeg (or even Toronto for that matter).

PS: On a side note, 40,285 US immigrants living in France (2021 census), this despite being located across a wide ocean and not speaking the same language. They are almost as many as the number of Indian immigrants in France (46,805).

There's no way of tracking the ancestry of those American citizens, but I don't think it's very likely that multi-generational English-speaking Americans of Quebecois ancestry are moving in any significant number to modern-day French-speaking Quebec. Especially considering that Americans are the 5th largest immigrant group in Canada as a whole, but not even in the top 10 in Quebec; there are most certainly a lot more Mr. Jacksons than Mr. Tremblays.

Weird assumptions from across the pond.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Americans or people with Canadian ancestry born in the US? Probably lots of Mr Tremblay born in Maine who moved to Québec in those figures... You're far less likely to find a Mr Jackson born in Alabama moving to Winnipeg (or even Toronto for that matter).

PS: On a side note, 40,285 US immigrants living in France (2021 census), this despite being located across a wide ocean and not speaking the same language. They are almost as many as the number of Indian immigrants in France (46,805).

Well the ones with recent ancestry have Canadian citizenship so wouldn't be counted. The others have little connection to Canada so seem unlikely to immigrate.

If we had EU like freedom of movement we would see an exponentially larger number move to Canada. Of course the drain south would be worse.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Americans or people with Canadian ancestry born in the US? Probably lots of Mr Tremblay born in Maine who moved to Québec in those figures... You're far less likely to find a Mr Jackson born in Alabama moving to Winnipeg (or even Toronto for that matter).

PS: On a side note, 40,285 US immigrants living in France (2021 census), this despite being located across a wide ocean and not speaking the same language. They are almost as many as the number of Indian immigrants in France (46,805).

I think it depends on which figures you were looking at.

The total number of people born in another country living in Canada can include people born in 1934 or 2024.

Of these, there are probably quite a few of these "American immigrants" who were people born to Canadian parents who were working in the US and later moved back to Canada with their young children.

I know quite a few people like this and even have a number of them in my family.

Most of the people in this situation however would be over 70 years old.

(Note that Quebec compiles statistics on immigrants by nationality including their mother tongue and home language. The majority of "American immigrants" in Quebec actually have French as their mother tongue. Of course this is only Quebec. The rest of the country has more people born in the US.)

All of this being said, the more recent immigrants to Canada from the US are not going to be part of this old trend and so they're typically random Americans who moved to Canada by choice, either for a job opportunity, because they married a Canadian or because they consider themselves to be self-anointed political refugees.

[MonctonRad]

My own mother was born in Rumford Maine. Her parents (my grandparents) had moved down there to work in the pulp mill. She was ultimately sent back to Canada to live with her grandparents when her mother died in the 1918 flu pandemic.

Just the other night I had a brief chat with the sales clerk at LL Bean in Moncton after I bought a shirt. He had a bit of an accent. He was from Massachusetts, but met and married an Acadian girl from NB, and they decided to live in Moncton.

During my tenure at the Moncton hospital, there have been several physicians from the US that have moved north of the border to work.

US immigration to Canada can be for multiple reasons.

[kool maudit]

I met a Swedish guy here with a VERY typically Quebecois last name and an Anglo first name. I asked him about it once, and it turns out his dad was "from Massachusetts" and he married a Swedish girl and came over here in the '80s. He really had only the vaguest idea that his Dad's roots were somehow "French", and none at all about Quebec. I think even his grandfather had grown up as an American, full stop.

[lio45]

As of this writing a full half of the Berlin NH city council has Québécois last names (yet I bet 0 of them speak decent French).

(4/8; Theberge, Morency, Berthiaume, Grenier.)

Canadien roots are extremely common in New England.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by lio45

As of this writing a full half of the Berlin NH city council has Québécois last names (yet I bet 0 of them speak decent French).

(4/8; Theberge, Morency, Berthiaume, Grenier.)

Canadien roots are extremely common in New England.

Yes it's very common and as others say many don't know they are French via Quebec or Acadian. But don't they actually speak French in Berlin?

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Yet somehow, Americans are Canada's 5th largest immigrant community, and up until 2022 were amongst the top 10 largest annual immigrant source countries (note that in 2023 & 2024, the quantity of American immigrants hasn't dropped - they've just been surpassed by rising numbers of other nationalities). France is still in the top 10 even as of 2024 though.

That said, also worth noting that emigration from Canada to the US does still outnumber the reverse.

I think American immigrants in Anglo-Canada sort of "blend in" given the cultural similarities and so we don't really notice them.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Yes it's very common and as others say many don't know they are French via Quebec or Acadian. But don't they actually speak French in Berlin?

I would bet it's not hard to find people who speak French there, but most people would not.

As for being aware, I'd bet most people in Berlin are conscious of their origins to some degree, given that it's not that far from the border and that a large share of the population is of French Canadian origin.

It's more when you get into the Bosnywash megalopolis corridor where people are more clueless, and where they probably grew up on street with people with all sorts of names like Pacheco, McGillicuddy, Abromvitz, Antonelli, Williams, Gonzalez. So Deslauriers is just one among many.

And of course many people with French surnames in much of the US probably think their ancestors came directly from France to Ellis Island, and are ignorant of the fact they lived in Quebec for 200-300 years before becoming Americans.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The exact same thing could be done with British English vs American English (try "J'ai payé 200 balles pour faire réparer mon pare-brise chez le garagiste."), but of course they haven't created two different "English" languages in their translate app.

In fact British English vs US English would be more required than France's French vs Canadian French, because the latter is only at an informal level (at a formal level it's exactly the same language save a few Québec purisms in terms of neologisms), whereas British English and US English have lots of differences even at a formal, workplace level.

It would be great if Google Translate can add support for the different standards of English.

Google's other language services (text-to-speech, voice assistant, etc.) already support 4 different varieties of spoken English - British, American, Australian, and Indian. When you use Google Voice, which one of those 4 versions it defaults to you when you select "English" as the language actually varies by the country of the user. In Europe & Africa it defaults to British, in the Americas, Middle East, and East Asia it defaults to American, in Oceania it defaults to Australian, and in India it defaults to Indian. (Not sure about the rest of South Asia).

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

My own mother was born in Rumford Maine. Her parents (my grandparents) had moved down there to work in the pulp mill. She was ultimately sent back to Canada to live with her grandparents when her mother died in the 1918 flu pandemic.

Just the other night I had a brief chat with the sales clerk at LL Bean in Moncton after I bought a shirt. He had a bit of an accent. He was from Massachusetts, but met and married an Acadian girl from NB, and they decided to live in Moncton.

During my tenure at the Moncton hospital, there have been several physicians from the US that have moved north of the border to work.

US immigration to Canada can be for multiple reasons.

Slightly off topic, wonder if you could speak to the level of bilingualism in NB hospitals. There's an individual on the Montreal Gazette comment board who believes that bilingualism for Francophones in NB hospitals (including the ones managed by Vitalite) is access to a translator. He thinks there are no bilingual physicians in NB.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I would bet it's not hard to find people who speak French there, but most people would not.

As for being aware, I'd bet most people in Berlin are conscious of their origins to some degree, given that it's not that far from the border and that a large share of the population is of French Canadian origin.

It's more when you get into the Bosnywash megalopolis corridor where people are more clueless, and where they probably grew up on street with people with all sorts of names like Pacheco, McGillicuddy, Abromvitz, Antonelli, Williams, Gonzalez. So Deslauriers is just one among many.

And of course many people with French surnames in much of the US probably think their ancestors came directly from France to Ellis Island, and are ignorant of the fact they lived in Quebec for 200-300 years before becoming Americans.

Also, low information people sometimes take assumptive shorcuts when it comes to their family trees and ethnic origins. Often based on their preferences and leanings too.

I knew a guy about 20 years ago whose name was Basque. He absolutely hated francophones. Couldn't stand them. Anyway, he used to say that he was of "Basque" ethnic origin. Of course, the name Basque is totally of francophone Canadian origin, borne by a number of Acadiens and Québécois.

If he truly were Basque, his name would have been Euskaldun or something.

Similarly, someone whose last name is "French" probably is primarily of British and not French origin.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

Slightly off topic, wonder if you could speak to the level of bilingualism in NB hospitals. There's an individual on the Montreal Gazette comment board who believes that bilingualism for Francophones in NB hospitals (including the ones managed by Vitalite) is access to a translator. He thinks there are no bilingual physicians in NB.

This person is ignorant and doesn't know what they are talking about.

With close to one-third of the population in New Brunswick being francophone, obviously there are going to be French-speaking healthcare professionals, including doctors.

It's just plain dumb logic.

This doesn't mean that everything is perfect and fantastic for francophones in the province, but they have a decent number of people who can treat them in French.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

Slightly off topic, wonder if you could speak to the level of bilingualism in NB hospitals. There's an individual on the Montreal Gazette comment board who believes that bilingualism for Francophones in NB hospitals (including the ones managed by Vitalite) is access to a translator. He thinks there are no bilingual physicians in NB.

There are two regional health authorities in NB - Vitalite (French) and Horizon (English)

Vitalite operates exclusively in French, including all internal communications, managerial structure and board meeting. I'm sure 90% of the physicians in Vitalite are francophone. For a while I maintained privileges within both health authorities, so, I can personally guarantee you that while documents can be found in English, the default language is very much French. The vast majority of doctor's notes and dictations are in French. I can read French "pas mal", so I could get by.

The opposite situation exists for the English authority (Horizon). Provincial legislation guarantees the rights of patients to receive services in the language of their choice.

Obviously this mandate is easier for Vitalite to accomplish since we are an anglophone majority province, but, on the English side, unless you are in darkest Charlotte County, every effort will be made to provide services in French. At my hospital (The Moncton Hospital), easily half of the nursing staff and physicians are bilingual.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

There are two regional health authorities in NB - Vitalite (French) and Horizon (English)

Vitalite operates exclusively in French, including all internal communications, managerial structure and board meeting. I'm sure 90% of the physicians in Vitalite are francophone. For a while I maintained privileges within both health authorities, so, I can personally guarantee you that while documents can be found in English, the default language is very much French. The vast majority of doctor's notes and dictations are in French. I can read French "pas mal", so I could get by.

The opposite situation exists for the English authority (Horizon). Provincial legislation guarantees the rights of patients to receive services in the language of their choice.

Obviously this mandate is easier for Vitalite to accomplish since we are an anglophone majority province, but, on the English side, unless you are in darkest Charlotte County, every effort will be made to provide services in French. At my hospital (The Moncton Hospital), easily half of the nursing staff and physicians are bilingual.

If there's already two separate health systems it seems like it would make way more sense to just make each one unilingual in service offerings. That way you wouldn't have to worry about language proficiencies when staffing.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's more when you get into the Bosnywash megalopolis corridor where people are more clueless, and where they probably grew up on street with people with all sorts of names like Pacheco, McGillicuddy, Abromvitz, Antonelli, Williams, Gonzalez. So Deslauriers is just one among many.

And probably pronounced “Dez-lorr-ee-errz”…

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

If there's already two separate health systems it seems like it would make way more sense to just make each one unilingual in service offerings. That way you wouldn't have to worry about language proficiencies when staffing.

If only it were that simple.

Vitalite operates mostly in the north and east. Horizon operates principally in the south and the west. Bilingual Moncton has both authorities.

There are francophone populations in SJ and especially Freddy. Most of the small cities in the north correspondingly have minority English populations. Because of this, both Horizon and Vitalite, despite their territoriality, have to be cognizant of linguistic minorities.

NB only has a single cardiac surgery centre (SJRH - Horizon). Since they service the whole province, they are studiously and rigidly bilingual, right down to the cardiac surgeons (which can be problematic for recruitment).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

If there's already two separate health systems it seems like it would make way more sense to just make each one unilingual in service offerings. That way you wouldn't have to worry about language proficiencies when staffing.

The effect of that as always would be to make the English one truly unilingual and the French one would remain de facto bilingual (if not de jure) due to the greater prevalence of bilingual people amongst the francphone population.

Getting francophones to serve anglophones in English is almost never the problem in Canada, even in Quebec actually.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

There are two regional health authorities in NB - Vitalite (French) and Horizon (English)

Vitalite operates exclusively in French, including all internal communications, managerial structure and board meeting. I'm sure 90% of the physicians in Vitalite are francophone. For a while I maintained privileges within both health authorities, so, I can personally guarantee you that while documents can be found in English, the default language is very much French. The vast majority of doctor's notes and dictations are in French. I can read French "pas mal", so I could get by.

The opposite situation exists for the English authority (Horizon). Provincial legislation guarantees the rights of patients to receive services in the language of their choice.

Obviously this mandate is easier for Vitalite to accomplish since we are an anglophone majority province, but, on the English side, unless you are in darkest Charlotte County, every effort will be made to provide services in French. At my hospital (The Moncton Hospital), easily half of the nursing staff and physicians are bilingual.

Thanks for your insight. Much appreciated.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I would bet it's not hard to find people who speak French there, but most people would not.

As for being aware, I'd bet most people in Berlin are conscious of their origins to some degree, given that it's not that far from the border and that a large share of the population is of French Canadian origin.

It's more when you get into the Bosnywash megalopolis corridor where people are more clueless, and where they probably grew up on street with people with all sorts of names like Pacheco, McGillicuddy, Abromvitz, Antonelli, Williams, Gonzalez. So Deslauriers is just one among many.

And of course many people with French surnames in much of the US probably think their ancestors came directly from France to Ellis Island, and are ignorant of the fact they lived in Quebec for 200-300 years before becoming Americans.

Other than Cajuns who have a good awareness I think it's a common misunderstanding. It's always interesting to see how French names are prounounced by Americans though that's common in Canada for non French English names. There are also a lot of Canadians whose ancesstors were in the US for awhile in the 1800s before moving to Canada as farm land was given away and the US was running out. At the end of the dady it doesn't matter much when are via where you came.