Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 5

[Atlas]

Not sure about Grand Boulevards but the I do think the 200S streetcar would have happened, based on what I've heard. Becker did get the S-line done.

[Makid]

I do agree that with Becker, we would have had at least the 200S streetcar. I think it is very probable that we would have had the Granary extension to 7th South along 4th West as well.

Becker was an advocate for transit and wanted 24/7 trax around downtown. The large loop would have allowed this.

Biskupski was so anti-transit that the City Council had to override her and basically force the downtown/granary streetcar lines into the cities long range plans. They also kept the 11th East S-Line extension on the books.

Had we kept Becker, we would have had better streetcar coverage today without a doubt. I also think we would have had the recent zoning height changes and parking updates done during the height of the boom cycle rather than the tail end.

With Becker, we got the S-Line, the planned downtown/granary streetcar lines, the foundations of the high frequency bus routes throughout the city, the Ecceles Theater, 111S Main, and a more streamlined planning process which sped up the development times.

Biskupski gave us the Utah Theater sale on the way out of office, the attempted removal of all fixed rail transit expansions and enhancements in the City, and the road bond.

Adding Mendenhall to the list, she helped push for Tech-Line, the 15min frequent bus network across the city, S-Line expansion, better/higher zoning, linking East/West sides, the 9-Line, Green Loop, and has been helpful to both SEG and the Miller's in their development pushes for and around their planned MLB stadium and the downtown entertainment district respectively.

These are just the items that I can think of off the top of my head. I think that it is easy to see that had Becker been given a 2nd term rather than Biskupski, the City would have been better off overall.

[Comrade]

I did come to dislike Biskupski but my best vote by a long-shot was denying him a third term. His second term was a total failure.

[i-215]

The moment she basically wanted to "clean house" and fire everyone -- and in the process, chased away the long-time Public Works Director...

...who she thought she could replace with her friend who ran a library branch. And that women had the wisdom to quit after 3 days. And by then the experienced director was already working for the county, so the city lost 'em forever.

Yeah, I venture to argue that Jackie Biskupski was the WORST mayor the city has seen in basically forever.

[Atlas]

Looks like CINQ is finished and open for business:

[Orlando]

Originally Posted by i-215

The moment she basically wanted to "clean house" and fire everyone -- and in the process, chased away the long-time Public Works Director...

...who she thought she could replace with her friend who ran a library branch. And that women had the wisdom to quit after 3 days. And by then the experienced director was already working for the county, so the city lost 'em forever.

Yeah, I venture to argue that Jackie Biskupski was the WORST mayor the city has seen in basically forever.

I don't recall, but did Becker just not decide to run for the next term or did Biskupski beat him?

Did I ever tell you all that I ran into Becker in 2019 on a hiking trail in Little Cottonwood Canyon?

[Always Sunny in SLC]

Originally Posted by Comrade

I did come to dislike Biskupski but my best vote by a long-shot was denying him a third term. His second term was a total failure.

The vote you are most proud of lead to the setting back of transit, zoning reform, loss of qualified and competent city administrators and a mayor that liked to accuse anyone opposing her of doing it because of gender or 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 orientation bias. Man you must have really disliked Becker to think that was a good vote.

[Atlas]

From the Denver thread:

Originally Posted by rds70

Where did you get these numbers? They do not match anything I have seen.

Let’s look at the CBRE numbers:

Downtown Denver has 34 million (including RiNo) - 34% vacant

Downtown Seattle has 55 million sf (including all the surrounding districts, Lake Union, etc) - 35% vacant
Downtown Portland has 27 million sf - 39% vacant
Downtown Minneapolis has 27 million sf (the entire Minneapolis-SP metro has only 77 million sf) - 26% vacant
Downtown Austin has 15 million sf (with 1.7 million under construction) - 34% vacant
Downtown Dallas has 40 million sf (including Uptown) - 27% vacant
Downtown Ft Worth has 7 million sf - 14% vacant
Downtown Houston has 42 million sf - 30% vacant

Why not include downtown Phoenix - 15 million sf - 31% vacant

So Denver has a slightly above average vacancy, based on your list.

Based on this report, Downtown SLC currently has 12,275,938 SF of office with 24.5% vacancy. Office development is almost nonexistent with the only signs of life coming from Class A.

[Orlando]

I know this is a controversial opinion, but I think companies need to bring back the workers to the office, but with more flexibility, i.e. 3 or 4 days in office, etc. Remote work is killing downtowns and company culture.

[Makid]

Originally Posted by Orlando

I know this is a controversial opinion, but I think companies need to bring back the workers to the office, but with more flexibility, i.e. 3 or 4 days in office, etc. Remote work is killing downtowns and company culture.

Many are already bringing workers back to the office. Even tech companies are bringing people back to the office. Many tech companies are shifting to a 3/2 hybrid model (3 in office, 2 at home).

I do think that this could be a boon for downtown. Many employers have sold or subleased their suburban office space and have shifted their focus more on downtown locations around the country. The shift had started prior to COVID and has started back up over the last year or so. As there is a push for a larger return to office around the Country, we could soon see a return to commercial building construction in the next couple of years as existing office space fills up.

[zurich]

.[/QUOTE]

I also think we might lose a few workers who need to return to places like Seattle and Silicon Valley, if companies like Meta, Amazon, Oracle request they return from the remote locations they fled to during Covid. I'm hoping with Ryan Smith investing so much into our downtown, he can recruit a big tech company to relocate here. I cannot imagine ALL of the young workers really want to live in Draper.

Extend TRAX to Park City, or extend TRAX from Sugarhouse to Cottonwood Heights..then everyone would want to live downtown.

[TheGeographer]

Originally Posted by Orlando

I know this is a controversial opinion, but I think companies need to bring back the workers to the office, but with more flexibility, i.e. 3 or 4 days in office, etc. Remote work is killing downtowns and company culture.

Booo. I’m a full time remote worker, and it allows for the flexibility I need to pick up kids, make meals, spend time with my family, and save me a ton of money. With that said I get your argument from a downtown perspective. I think a day or two ima week would be alright. One thing to consider are many remote workers have moved away to other states. Half of the people at my company has. So Pandora’s box has been opened and I don’t see us going back. Can you imagine firing half your workforce and having to retrain a bunch of new employees because the former were living in another state and you required them to report back in the office? Not happening for smaller companies. Where y’all are right is big companies like Amazon that 🞵🞵🞵🞵 to work for other than salary as a tech person would be your ticket. Their work life balance 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 and they do implement rules to bring back workers into the office. I suppose a big company would be the ideal scenario downtown, so if that happens great.

Anyways, the real problem is getting people to live downtown. Most cities in the world (maybe not Dubai) where there are lots of towers, density, vibrancy and culture have that because of residential not office workers. Most office workers show up at 9, then leave and don’t spend a dime if they’re smart and pack a lunch to to save money. The vibrancy and culture downtown will come from within. When I was in São Paulo the culture downtown was because of the people living there not the few office buildings. Every other big city I’ve been to is the same. Salt Lakes not big per se but should follow the same model. Good news is there is still lots of apartments going up around downtown, so I think it’ll only improve downtown.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by Always Sunny in SLC

The vote you are most proud of lead to the setting back of transit, zoning reform, loss of qualified and competent city administrators and a mayor that liked to accuse anyone opposing her of doing it because of gender or 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 orientation bias. Man you must have really disliked Becker to think that was a good vote.

Yes. I voted Becker twice - proudly, by the way. But his second term was awful and it was completely narcissistic of him to run for a third term knowing he was vulnerable and a failure. He reminds me of another politician currently, in fact...

I wasn't a HUGE Jackie fan. But because Becker ran - and the guy I supported in the primary lost - I had no choice to vote for her. I don't regret it.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by Orlando

I don't recall, but did Becker just not decide to run for the next term or did Biskupski beat him?

Did I ever tell you all that I ran into Becker in 2019 on a hiking trail in Little Cottonwood Canyon?

Becker, drunk on power, decided to run for a third term despite his corrupt second term tanking his approval and Salt Lakers pleading with him not to.

Jackie only won because the city tired of Becker like they tired of Rocky.

But at least Rocky had the decency to not seek a third term (err, consecutive lmao) and instead opened the race so that we weren't forced to vote for someone like Jackie just to get the corruption out of the City-County Building.

[RC14]

Originally Posted by Orlando

I know this is a controversial opinion, but I think companies need to bring back the workers to the office, but with more flexibility, i.e. 3 or 4 days in office, etc. Remote work is killing downtowns and company culture.

I can't imagine that high paying, remote work jobs are sustainable. Why pay someone a US salary, to work remotely, when you could pay someone on the other side of the world to do the same job for less? You would have to be someone with a very unique skill set to justify the extra cost. I think most of these jobs will be brought back into the office, automated or outsourced.

[TheGeographer]

Originally Posted by RC14

I can't imagine that high paying, remote work jobs are sustainable. Why pay someone a US salary, to work remotely, when you could pay someone on the other side of the world to do the same job for less? You would have to be someone with a very unique skill set to justify the extra cost. I think most of these jobs will be brought back into the office, automated or outsourced.

Being in an office and renting office space and paying all that overhead just to have everyone under the same roof is not cheap either. Needing to be in the office depends on the industry. In business people need that social aspect to get “deals” done. For a data scientist we just need a kick 🞵🞵🞵 serve/cloud environment we can remote into from anywhere in the world. Sure jobs can be outsourced, but that’s not very sustainable for a variety of reasons. One easy issue to ponder is that if you outsource to somewhere in East Asia they are not even close to the same time zone so communication is severely limited because of time zone difference and because of language barriers. Anyways I don’t understand the obsession of being in the office. Remote work kicks 🞵🞵🞵

[RC14]

Originally Posted by TheGeographer

Being in an office and renting office space and paying all that overhead just to have everyone under the same roof is not cheap either.

Your point about office space being wasteful made me think about how we look at real estate. Maybe the categories are too ridged? For example, we don't need as much office or retail space as we use to but we need allot more housing. Maybe we should be thinking about how we can build so that the real estate can be quickly converted to whatever is needed.

I think short term rentals could be a model for the future. If there is increased demand for hotels, homes can be easily converted to short term rentals and back again if the market changes. Maybe architects and planners could create designs that allow residents to do the same with retail and office(work from home) uses? Or allow commercial properties to be easily converted to residential uses without expensive renovations?

If this idea is feasible, I think it would spur more innovation, creativity and entrepreneurship and potentially make cities allot more vibrant and interesting as ideas could be quickly implemented without worrying about securing expensive real estate.

[airhero]

Originally Posted by Orlando

I know this is a controversial opinion, but I think companies need to bring back the workers to the office, but with more flexibility, i.e. 3 or 4 days in office, etc. Remote work is killing downtowns and company culture.

Yeah I agree (don’t tell my coworkers though). It’s way easier to communicate with people in office, in my experience. Some jobs can be worked remotely if everyone properly uses the tools at their disposal, but that wasn’t happening with my job. It’s a shame because I actually like working remotely, not having to commute. I have a great home office. But some people were hard to work with remotely. Coming in 100% is overkill though. When I’m busy I frequently work weekends and I really don’t want to commute an extra day. The office is almost always empty on the weekend anyway, and I’m usually using that time to catch up on things that don’t require collaboration.


I don’t work downtown though. I wish I did. I want to amplify what Zurich said. A lot of tech workers would want to be downtown! Not at point of the mountain. There are tech jobs downtown but I wish there were more.

[bob rulz]

I think whether a job is in-office, hybrid, or remote should just depend on the job and what the workers want.

Some people do better working in office, some do better at home.

Some jobs are easier to do from home, some really benefit from that social aspect.

I personally work hybrid and I think that's the perfect balance for me. I benefit a lot from those 2 days a week in the office, and I like having to go downtown (luckily where my office is), but not having to commute 5 days a week and being able to take little micro-breaks and do some housework during work hours at home is also nice.

Yes I agree that some things are lost when fully remote. It's easier to work with and communicate with people in-person a lot of the time. But I think companies forcing employees back into the office when it's not needed and the employees don't want it is bad. And the younger generations are going to become increasingly unlikely to want to do full-time in-person office work in many fields. I think offices that unnecessarily force in-person work will have a harder time recruiting and retaining the next generation of workers.

We're in a transition period as a society as we figure out how much we want to balance in-person with remote work, and as we figure out how to adapt our land use to accommodate for it. Maybe in the long-term it will lead to a better distribution of services in suburban areas. Not getting my hopes up, but it may be something that happens over time. Downtowns may be struggling because of it in some areas, but I don't think the desire for downtown living is diminishing. If I'm going to work remotely, if anything I'd rather live downtown so I can easily walk to everything I need, because a lot of times those outings or errand trips happen on the way home from work. It's just that our downtowns have been oriented towards office work for so long, the ones that don't have a healthier mix are struggling. Hopefully it will force them to adapt as well.

[meman]

Hey Atlas, I was really blown away by the figures you provided from CBRE about office space in different cities

I cant believe Portland has more than twice the office space as salt lake and more office space than Austin.I think Portland and Salt lake are close to the same size so Im just wondering why the big discrepancy???