Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[niwell]

If we're posting Quebec related humour I can't stop laughing at this one:

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

.If bien pensant Canadians looked more closely and honestly at ours they would be just as critical of it.

As I said upthread:

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

There has always been a bit of a disconnect between what Anglo-Canadians thought their immigration policy was, versus what it actually was. I think this first occurred to me around 2012-ish when the US was having some domestic drama about illegal immigrants and I was in a room full of Canadians who were talking about how evil those Americans were for how mean they are to the poor undocumented folks and how we don't do that here in Canada. Meanwhile Canada had, prior to JT messing it up, a system of zero-tolerance towards illegal immigration that blue Americans would think of as evil and awful. Heck, we regularly deported (and still do) the Canadian born children of illegal immigrants, something that the average Democratic Party voter would think is beyond-the-pale evil.

Anglo-Canadian society always thought of their immigration policy as being like the Lazarus poem - bringing the "poor and wretched" to Canada for a better life. In reality, our system was highly controlled, and highly selective. It made us think we were some uniquely tolerant people (a sort of "progressive jingoism" if you can call it that ) and laughed at those racist Americans and Europeans for complaining about migrants, but in reality we were benefitting from carefully controlled migration that prevented so many of the issues our allies were experiencing.

It was probably only a matter of time before some politician moved our system closer to what the average uninformed white Canadian thought it was to score brownie points with the ignorant public. JT just happened to be that politician. And now we're experiencing the consequences, and realizing that, hey, immigration only really works if it's carefully regulated - the Lazarus model actually kinda sucks.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

There has always been a bit of a disconnect between what Anglo-Canadians thought their immigration policy was, versus what it actually was. I think this first occurred to me around 2012-ish when the US was having some domestic drama about illegal immigrants and I was in a room full of Canadians who were talking about how evil those Americans were for how mean they are to the poor undocumented folks and how we don't do that here in Canada. Meanwhile Canada had, prior to JT messing it up, a system of zero-tolerance towards illegal immigration that blue Americans would think of as evil and awful. Heck, we regularly deported (and still do) the Canadian born children of illegal immigrants, something that the average Democratic Party voter would think is beyond-the-pale evil.

Anglo-Canadian society always thought of their immigration policy as being like the Lazarus poem - bringing the "poor and wretched" to Canada for a better life. In reality, our system was highly controlled, and highly selective. It made us think we were some uniquely tolerant people (a sort of "progressive jingoism" if you can call it that ) and laughed at those racist Americans and Europeans for complaining about migrants, but in reality we were benefitting from carefully controlled migration that prevented so many of the issues our allies were experiencing.

It was probably only a matter of time before some politician moved our system closer to what the average uninformed white Canadian thought it was to score brownie points with the ignorant public. JT just happened to be that politician. And now we're experiencing the consequences, and realizing that, hey, immigration only really works if it's carefully regulated - the Lazarus model actually kinda sucks.

This is half true but the knowledge was pretty widespread that our points based system gave us better immigrants than the US. We maybe thought we were so good at integration we could take refugees and make them sucessful Canadians. Trudeau first foray to expanding Syrian refugees seems to have been succsessful. These were illiterate, brown muslims and they have mostly done well maybe because they came here desperate and thankful to Canada. So maybe it's not about the quality of the immigrants as much as the motivation and expecations we set. Those crossing at Roxham road have already lived in the US and adopted some of the worst parts of US culture.

[kwoldtimer]

When did Syrians become brown? Education levels are well above basic literacy. They also have a strong work ethic.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

When did Syrians become brown? Education levels are well above basic literacy. They also have a strong work ethic.

I don't know it's hard to keep up but supposedly Palestinians are so Syrians should be too. There is certainly lots of hard workers and educated Syrians. My understanding from someone that works with refugees is post 2015 refugees we accepted were in many cases the most desperate with very little education. The more educated often had other choices.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

As I said upthread:

Yes, and you said it very well.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Huge difference between "untrue" and "negative". kool maudit sharing official Danish Government statistics with us isn't "derogatory" in any way, unless someone has a very different definition of the word than mine. That data doesn't look good for Palestinians, but the data is what it is.

Statistics are often at odds with the societal norms and narratives we want to impose on ourselves.

Frankly, I am kind of surprised we still have access to these types of numbers.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Statistics are often at odds with the societal norms and narratives we want to impose on ourselves.

Frankly, I am kind of surprised we still have access to these types of numbers.

Well we don't in Canada do we?

[kool maudit]

Just as an aside, the Levant is a pretty ethnically diverse area. Many Palestinians are what you might call "brown", and many are fair-skinned, even with light-colored eyes. I'd say most could pretty comfortably live anywhere around the Med without looking out of place.

It's why it's kind of funny when people insist that European depictions of Christ are biased towards the European phenotype. Because they're right in one sense that European Christendom would definitely do that... but he also could have looked like that! My first-year roommate was a Palestinian guy with blue eyes and sandy hair. Had he grown it out, he would have looked MORE Northern than your usual Euro depiction of Christ.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Just as an aside, the Levant is a pretty ethnically diverse area. Many Palestinians are what you might call "brown", and many are fair-skinned, even with light-colored eyes. I'd say most could pretty comfortably live anywhere around the Med without looking out of place.

It's why it's kind of funny when people insist that European depictions of Christ are biased towards the European phenotype. Because they're right in one sense that European Christendom would definitely do that... but he also could have looked like that! My first-year roommate was a Palestinian guy with blue eyes and sandy hair. Had he grown it out, he would have looked MORE Northern than your usual Euro depiction of Christ.

One of the prettiest ladies on my street is a 100% Lebanese woman with natural blond hair and blue eyes.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

One of the prettiest ladies on my street is a 100% Lebanese woman with natural blond hair and blue eyes.

One is tempted to ask, but I guess it's better not to go there.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

One is tempted to ask, but I guess it's better not to go there.

She told me (and I believed her), she didn't show me.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

She told me (and I believed her), she didn't show me.

Yeah, I'd stick to that story ...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Yeah, I'd stick to that story ...

You do know that natural blondes aren't necessarily... uhhh... never mind.

[New Brisavoine]

I see that immigration seems to perturb/concern/interest you guys far more than fertility rates. It should be the opposite. Canada has no future with its abysmally low fertility rate.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

When did Syrians become brown? Education levels are well above basic literacy. They also have a strong work ethic.

Depends which Syrians... Germany recently has cooled a lot on Syrian "refugees" after the increase in crime and insecurity. Here in Paris at Gare St Lazare I can see female Syrian beggars every single day. What a deplorable image of Syria these women give, sitting all day in the middle of the huge flows of travelers and commuters (our police is as usual extremely lax and let them sit there with their cardboard signs written in Arabic all day impending the free flow of people in an already very crowded train station, the largest and busiest commuter train station in Europe).

Typically the well educated Syrians went to the US. The less well educated ones stayed in Europe, or Turkey (where racism towards the Syrians has skyrocketed recently).

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

It's why it's kind of funny when people insist that European depictions of Christ are biased towards the European phenotype. Because they're right in one sense that European Christendom would definitely do that... but he also could have looked like that!

Doubtful. Those Levantines with European traits have European traits because... they have European ancestors. The Franks (i.e. us, the French) who invaded the Levant during the Crusades and established Crusader states that lasted for more than 100 years, with lots of intermariages + illegitimate children born of Frankish knights. Many Frankish knights came from northern France, so blonde and blue eyed.

Back when Jesus Christ lived, you wouldn't have people with fair skin and blue eyes in the Middle East (or very little).

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Doubtful. Those Levantines with European traits have European traits because... they have European ancestors. The Franks (i.e. us, the French) who invaded the Levant during the Crusades and established Crusader states that lasted for more than 100 years, with lots of intermariages + illegitimate children born of Frankish knights. Many Frankish knights came from northern France, so blonde and blue eyed.

Back when Jesus Christ lived, you wouldn't have people with fair skin and blue eyes in the Middle East (or very little).

I don't think this is true. Blue eyes are admittedly a bit of an outlier, but if anything, the (phenotypically darker) Arabs took a lot of ground between the time of Christ and now. There are also people like the Berbers who are native to the Med and have lighter colouring. I suspect that the Phoenician ports, Libya and the Levant were quite varied in the time of Christ, ranging from fairer people all the way to Nubians from Egypt (who were always a southern people, but obviously lived throughout Egypt given that country's development and mobility).

People in late antiquity hardly shared our American-derived way of speaking about these things, but I think it would be visible in Roman sources if e.g. the Carthaginians were notably different from the Romans in terms of looks.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

One is tempted to ask, but I guess it's better not to go there.

[kwoldtimer]

Anglican priests reportedly prevented from dining in the restaurant of Quebec's provincial legislature? I didn't think Anglicans were that scary, but I guess the wait staff could have been traumitized.

You couldn't make this up.