Does Toronto have the same magnetic pull among Canadians that NYC has for Americans?

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by pip

Depends on how you measure IT.

Copy/Pasting into WordPress is not tech

Agree and partly explains why some big cities didn't make the Top 20. The CBRE Top Tech Eco-Systems study has been around a long time and explains in detail the methodology. The study takes a comprehensive view, looks at many metrics, and weighs accordingly.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Nite

Keep in mine that waterloo is very much part of Toronto's orbit. if they were in the US they would all be one market, just lik ehow they list SF Bay Area as one market.

That's correct. Waterloo is to Toronto what San Jose is to San Francisco. I have no issue with Waterloo being separated out but they need to be consistent across the board.

[mhays]

Greater San Francisco is continuous development at dense-suburban levels, with huge numbers of commuters across the "line." Kitchener-Waterloo (to its credit) seems to be separated from Toronto by a wide greenbelt.

I can see why it's separate. Maybe if commuting patterns are similar you have a case, beyond simple distance.

[iheartthed]

Waterloo is definitely more separated from Toronto than San Jose/South Bay from San Francisco. Kitchener-Waterloo is also a much smaller region than the South Bay.

[Docere]

Last time I checked, Kitchener-Waterloo would not meet the criteria for a Toronto CSA.

[Doady]

In 2016, 84% of commutes originating from Waterloo Region were to Waterloo Region, and 8% to Guelph and Wellington County. That's already 92% of outgoing commutes right there so I don't think Kitchener-Waterloo would be part of any sort of Toronto CSA.

[Docere]

2021 for census divisions (county-level equivalent) here:

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1...ctedFlowType=0

Just 5% commute to the GTA.

[Docere]

And it looks like Hamilton would still be a separate MSA - 23% commute to the GTA (though it would be part of a Toronto CSA). I recall it having crosses the 25% threshold - I guess I'm mistaken.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Doady

In 2016, 84% of commutes originating from Waterloo Region were to Waterloo Region, and 8% to Guelph and Wellington County. That's already 92% of outgoing commutes right there so I don't think Kitchener-Waterloo would be part of any sort of Toronto CSA.

Originally Posted by mhays

Greater San Francisco is continuous development at dense-suburban levels, with huge numbers of commuters across the "line." Kitchener-Waterloo (to its credit) seems to be separated from Toronto by a wide greenbelt.

I can see why it's separate. Maybe if commuting patterns are similar you have a case, beyond simple distance.

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Waterloo is definitely more separated from Toronto than San Jose/South Bay from San Francisco.

It's criteria to determine a US CSA but isn't necessarily useful when determining if Waterloo and Toronto constitute separate tech eco-systems. Waterloo and Toronto are only 92 km apart (57 miles), the Corridor is marketed as 1 tech region, there's considerable integration between the 2, and GO train electrification will deepen existing ties. Whether people outside tech commute doesn't factor.

[mhays]

If you have tech-specific commute data, you might have a point. Otherwise it's one city vs. two cities that coordinate.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by isaidso

It's criteria to determine a US CSA but isn't necessarily useful when determining if Waterloo and Toronto constitute separate tech eco-systems. Waterloo and Toronto are only 92 km apart (57 miles), the Corridor is marketed as 1 tech region, there's considerable integration between the 2, and GO train electrification will deepen existing ties. Whether people outside tech commute doesn't factor.

Keep in mind that much/most of Silicon Valley is between San Francisco and San Jose. Palo Alto, Mountain View, Sunnyvale, etc., are between the two cities, and San Jose is like a major terminus of the Bay Area. There isn't the same continuity between Waterloo and Toronto, IMO. San Jose is also much larger than Waterloo, so there it doesn't provide the same type of multi-polar balance that San Jose performs for San Francisco.

Toronto and Waterloo seem like they have a relationship more similar to Detroit and Ann Arbor, IMO. Both Waterloo and Ann Arbor are satellites of the much larger nearby city, but with very clear spheres of influence that only marginally overlap with the bigger city.

[Crawford]

Also, Canadian metros are far more constrained than American metros. Toronto is a much smaller metro geography than, say, Detroit. Likely smaller than Cleveland. Congestion is on another level and there aren't the mega-arterials everywhere, so the silly stuff where Americans drive 50 miles from Howell, MI semirural to Troy, MI office park doesn't realistically happen in GTA.

[Docere]

Commuter flow for Santa Clara County (a bit dated):

https://labormarketinfo.edd.ca.gov/f...aclara2010.pdf

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Also, Canadian metros are far more constrained than American metros. Toronto is a much smaller metro geography than, say, Detroit. Likely smaller than Cleveland. Congestion is on another level and there aren't the mega-arterials everywhere, so the silly stuff where Americans drive 50 miles from Howell, MI semirural to Troy, MI office park doesn't realistically happen in GTA.

US road infrastructure enables this so much.

Every time I visit Michigan it amazes how easy it is to get around quickly compared to Ontario. You can cover massive distances far quickly and more reliably than across the border.

Now - other parts of the US aren't quite as stark - I find Boston for example to be equally if not more challenging to navigate than Toronto by car, but Michigan is very, very efficient.

[Rico Rommheim]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

To add to the allegories - Montreal feels kind of like New Orleans in a way in it's place in the country - not an economic draw at all but famous for it's unique culture and party scene.

Um, no. This isn't accurate at all.

[Docere]

Montreal's "place in the country" is it is the cultural and economic capital of Quebec. It is for francophones and Quebec what Toronto is for anglophones and ROC.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Also, Canadian metros are far more constrained than American metros. Toronto is a much smaller metro geography than, say, Detroit. Likely smaller than Cleveland. Congestion is on another level and there aren't the mega-arterials everywhere, so the silly stuff where Americans drive 50 miles from Howell, MI semirural to Troy, MI office park doesn't realistically happen in GTA.

Interestingly, if you remove St. Clair and Lapeer from the Detroit metro area definition, Metro Detroit and the GTA have a very similar footprint. St. Clair and Lapeer counties are like +95% rural and only get added to Detroit's MSA by technicality. By Canadian definitions they would almost certainly not be included. The GTA has like 2 million more people than Metro Detroit though, so definitely more dense.