Canadian Foreign Policy & Affairs II

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

My point in posting that protest on Parliament Hill wasn’t to insinuate that it was illegitimate, but rather to show that religious rhetoric is very often part of these protests. Given that it was alleged here that religion was largely absent from pro-Gaza protests, and that the participants were mostly non-Arab and non-Muslim students.

I don't think anybody said it was "largely absent". Just that what motivates people to actually turn out and participate can be different. There's a diverse set of Muslims in Canada. But most of the ones you'll see at any Palestine rally are of heritage from countries that neighbour Israel.

Also, you should perhaps understand this as a Quebecer. In a lot of the world religion and culture are mixed. Just like Quebec pre-Quiet Revolution. And even some aspects today. Or do you want to explain why my first hardcore Quebecois Sergeant was calling be a tabernacle and a chalice when I got off the bus in St.Jean for basic training?

[shreddog]

Interesting scenario - is it that the demand really isn't there (allowable demand that is) or is the local infrastructure not able to support those wanting to leave to make the charter flights?

Canadian charter flights leaving Lebanon have hundreds of empty seats, Global Affairs says

Global Affairs Canada (GAC) says two flights chartered by the federal government to bring Canadians out of Lebanon left Beirut for Istanbul Thursday with just 275 passengers and 379 empty seats.

In Paris on Thursday for the Francophonie Summit, Foreign Affairs Minister Mélanie Joly told reporters there were 654 seats on those two flights.

"Please take the seats," Joly said. "At this point, not all seats are taken by Canadians."

Shortly after Joly's media availability, her department issued a press release saying those two flights collectively carried 275 passengers, not all of them Canadian. The department said the passengers included citizens of "like-minded countries" like Australia, New Zealand, Denmark and the U.S....

LINK

[kwoldtimer]

It would be interesting to know whether it's because they don't want to leave, or whether for some reason(s) they feel they can't leave. Or maybe just believe they're in safe locations and don't need to leave. Some may have crossed the border into Syria, I suppose.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Agreed. It is a little much to expect the current conflict not to generate protests due to the high level of violence. As the Anglosphere is allied with Israel in an essentially permanent sense so long as the postwar order remains in force, one might question the wisdom of acquiring new Canadians from reliably anti-Israel sources, but that horse is now miles from the barn and galloping freely.

Perhaps, though I don't think there has been any point in my lifetime where filtering people in that way would have been politically or morally feasible.

I mean, even at the height of the Cold War and paranoia about communists we still let in tons of people from behind the Iron Curtain. We assumed that they were all anti-communist of course. Though some were not.

The best we could do is be very clear about expectations and norms when it comes to Canadian values, but that's anathema right now and many will even argue there is no such thing. Quebec is about the only place that even dares tread there, and it gets tarred and feathered for it.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I don't think anybody said it was "largely absent". Just that what motivates people to actually turn out and participate can be different. There's a diverse set of Muslims in Canada. But most of the ones you'll see at any Palestine rally are of heritage from countries that neighbour Israel.

Also, you should perhaps understand this as a Quebecer. In a lot of the world religion and culture are mixed. Just like Quebec pre-Quiet Revolution. And even some aspects today. Or do you want to explain why my first hardcore Quebecois Sergeant was calling be a tabernacle and a chalice when I got off the bus in St.Jean for basic training?

Yes and I understand all of that!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

It would be interesting to know whether it's because they don't want to leave, or whether for some reason(s) they feel they can't leave. Or maybe just believe they're in safe locations and don't need to leave. Some may have crossed the border into Syria, I suppose.

In the Current Events thread I mentioned a while ago that I knew a lot of Lebanese people in my entourage. They're not overly concerned about the safety of their loved ones over there nor are they outraged by Israel's actions.

Of course most of them are Christian.

Now last night I ran into one Lebanese guy I hadn't seen in a long time. He was saying that he had family in the northern suburbs of Beirut. He said the situation was very disruptive for the country, but that he still didn't fear for their safety and neither did they. He noted they live in a very Christian area and have nothing to do with Hezbollah, and therefore have nothing to fear from the Israelis.

[savevp]

An update, apparently two men were arrested for flying Hezbollah flags in Toronto after being cautioned by police. And apropos to the ongoing discussion, they weren't the left wing student types either.

I believe this is the first time we've seen this sort of arrest with these protests.


https://toronto.citynews.ca/2024/10/...zbollah-flags/

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

It would be interesting to know whether it's because they don't want to leave, or whether for some reason(s) they feel they can't leave. Or maybe just believe they're in safe locations and don't need to leave. Some may have crossed the border into Syria, I suppose.

The airport is open for commercial flights. People who want to leave and can get to the airport probably didn’t wait around for GAC. I am baffled as to why nobody checked how many passengers were ready to fly before chartering two planes.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The airport is open for commercial flights. People who want to leave and can get to the airport probably didn’t wait around for GAC. I am baffled as to why nobody checked how many passengers were ready to fly before chartering two planes.

Well now in a few weeks when they are crying to the government to get them out there is a clear arugment back. "There were flights that we chartered and they were not full this is on you."

Sadly they are so low in the polls they can't afford to piss off anyone and Lebanese are probably importantin in a few Montreal ridings so will cave and get the military to help anyway in X weeks when the inevitable mass exodus finally occurs. I have sympathy even for somone who went on vacation to Lebanon this summer when war was possible but not imminent but if you are staying now anything that happens is clearly on you.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I don't like what they are celebrating. But technically they aren't violating any Canadian laws. Unless you can show they actively inciting against another group on Canada, what they do at their rallies is perfectly legal. Qualifying as a charity is probably the more debatable part here to be honest. But then regulation of charities has been an absolute mess for a while and we also let a whole bunch of pro-Israel charities fly under the radar. Some that were raising funds for settlers or even provide kit to the IDF.

They are basically engaging in incitement. Although on reflection, "terrorist designation" is too harsh of a response, I'd agree.

In Australia and the UK people have actually been charged simply for expressing verbal affinity or approval of terrorist groups without actually doing anything - which we haven't done. Even in the Freedom Convoy the only people charged were those who directly engaged in public mischief events like the mass honking.

I guess this is where the rubber meets the road on freedom of expression.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Perhaps, though I don't think there has been any point in my lifetime where filtering people in that way would have been politically or morally feasible.

Exactly, and nobody here has been advocating for anything remotely like that, much less being racist or supporting replacement theory, as has been suggested.

Originally Posted by Acajack

The best we could do is be very clear about expectations and norms when it comes to Canadian values, but that's anathema right now and many will even argue there is no such thing. Quebec is about the only place that even dares tread there, and it gets tarred and feathered for it.

I always thought that there was an unwritten expectation, that someone fleeing a country in which they were unhappy or felt unsafe, would embrace the values and culture of their new country, resulting in a blend of their lived experience/culture and that of Canada. I think that this is typically the case for the majority of immigrants as well. People that I’ve known in that situation have all done this, and their children born in Canada grow up just like the average (though that can be many things) Canadian with the benefit of their parent’s (and their own by family legacy) culture that gives them an extra perspective that most others don’t have. IMHO that’s when immigration is at its best.

That said, I don’t see how that could ever be implemented on an official level, nor should it, really. It’s just a hope for the future that has played out, that way, mostly, in the past.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I always thought that there was an unwritten expectation, that someone fleeing a country in which they were unhappy or felt unsafe, would embrace the values and culture of their new country, resulting in a blend of their lived experience/culture and that of Canada. I think that this is typically the case for the majority of immigrants as well. People that I’ve known in that situation have all done this, and their children born in Canada grow up just like the average (though that can be many things) Canadian with the benefit of their parent’s (and their own by family legacy) culture that gives them an extra perspective that most others don’t have. IMHO that’s when immigration is at its best.

I think those fleeing have always maintained a stronger identiy with their former country. The Balts, Czechs, Poles in successive wave all kept that identity. Some still have it. The difference is it was mostly compatible with the views of the majority at that time. (If they arrived now with their christian social conservatism I would argue it would be also be problematic)

I think it is on us to control our border and intake such that we can absorb. There is no contract they signed to assimilate or agree with gay marriage, or even freedom of expression and pluralism. It seems like it is too late to change our system to reflect values. A wealthy business person from Dubai who thinks he can kill his daughter if she dates will still have more immigration points than a plumber in Hong Kong who wants nothing but to live in a democracy and would die if it would make any difference. Sure I donlt think there is an easy way to change this but if we talked about the different value immigrants bring without labeling the discussion as racist that would be a helpful first step. As my example shows it's not all about race.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I think those fleeing have always maintained a stronger identiy with their former country. The Balts, Czechs, Poles in successive wave all kept that identity. Some still have it. The difference is it was mostly compatible with the views of the majority at that time. (If they arrived now with their christian social conservatism I would argue it would be also be problematic)

We saw a sort of example of this in the pandemic. People of Eastern European refugee stock were the main foot soldiers of the anti-vaccination movements. Quite a few Polish flags were being waved in Ottawa during the Freedom Convoy.

30+ years after these communities had come to Canada as refugees, they're still quite divergent from the median Canadian.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I always thought that there was an unwritten expectation, that someone fleeing a country in which they were unhappy or felt unsafe, would embrace the values and culture of their new country, resulting in a blend of their lived experience/culture and that of Canada. I think that this is typically the case for the majority of immigrants as well. People that I’ve known in that situation have all done this, and their children born in Canada grow up just like the average (though that can be many things) Canadian with the benefit of their parent’s (and their own by family legacy) culture that gives them an extra perspective that most others don’t have. IMHO that’s when immigration is at its best.

That said, I don’t see how that could ever be implemented on an official level, nor should it, really. It’s just a hope for the future that has played out, that way, mostly, in the past.

I think Acajack has the right idea, here. Instead of nastier measures like bans on certain countries of origin or values tests or anything like that, we should just make it clear what our national values are. That alone will "self-filter" a lot of prospective immigrants to those that match those values.

Though even that doesn't work necessarily all the time. Like with the Eastern Europeans I brought up in my last post - they came here because we were perceived to a place of freedom from big government (they were fleeing literal communism), and turns out - hey, they don't like to be told what to do even during a pandemic. Could have figured!

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I think Acajack has the right idea, here. Instead of nastier measures like bans on certain countries of origin or values tests or anything like that, we should just make it clear what our national values are. That alone will "self-filter" a lot of prospective immigrants to those that match those values.

Though even that doesn't work necessarily all the time. Like with the Eastern Europeans I brought up in my last post - they came here because we were perceived to a place of freedom from big government (they were fleeing literal communism), and turns out - hey, they don't like to be told what to do even during a pandemic. Could have figured!

I find the idea rather naive. There is no lack of information available to immigrants from government and other sources as to what to expect in Canada. If someone wants to try to come, they will try to come. If they think their opinions would not be conducive to success in the immigration process, they will not share those views. The best we can do is to weed out who those who have demonstrated by their acts that they are not suitable for acceptance (and even that is not a guarantee).

What would one contemplate doing with those who come to Canada and are subsequently found not compatible (by whom)? We can deport those who commit criminal acts but what about the rest?

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I think Acajack has the right idea, here. Instead of nastier measures like bans on certain countries of origin or values tests or anything like that, we should just make it clear what our national values are. That alone will "self-filter" a lot of prospective immigrants to those that match those values.

Though even that doesn't work necessarily all the time. Like with the Eastern Europeans I brought up in my last post - they came here because we were perceived to a place of freedom from big government (they were fleeing literal communism), and turns out - hey, they don't like to be told what to do even during a pandemic. Could have figured!

Yes because Canada also is a place that has a strong history of anti government feelings. That is a mainstream view. The Liberal party does not have a monopoly on our values. I think you can put a lot of it down to woman's rights. While the woke version of gender idealogy is a different matter if you don't think Men and Women are equal in all aspects of society you will never integrate. I think refugees from places like Afghanistan know that about Canada and it doesn't mean they will practice it here so not sure how we do that. I think that is where rules like no Hijabs in the publc service are powerful. They do send a message of intolerance to some people but they also tell someone wavering about where to go that in Canada gender equality is more important than religous freedom so maybe they should go to the US if that is more important.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Yes because Canada also is a place that has a strong history of anti government feelings. That is a mainstream view. The Liberal party does not have a monopoly on our values. I think you can put a lot of it down to woman's rights. While the woke version of gender idealogy is a different matter if you don't think Men and Women are equal in all aspects of society you will never integrate. I think refugees from places like Afghanistan know that about Canada and it doesn't mean they will practice it here so not sure how we do that. I think that is where rules like no Hijabs in the publc service are powerful. They do send a message of intolerance to some people but they also tell someone wavering about where to go that in Canada gender equality is more important than religous freedom so maybe they should go to the US if that is more important.

Really? Can you expand on that? I assume you are speaking about the majority of Canadians and not the inevitable minority dissidents.

[Acajack]

I think many people before they come here know that Canada is a western country with some predominant customs and values that can be different from those of their home country, but there is also very strong messaging from Canada that says that if you choose to do so, you can also pretty much live here according to your own old country ways - and raise your kids in them.

That's actually the whole point of multiculturalism. At least the contemporary incarnation of it.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Really? Can you expand on that? I assume you are speaking about the majority of Canadians and not the inevitable minority dissidents.

I mean anti big government in the anti big government the individual over collective rights. Not specifically the line the Convoy crossed. I don't think a majority of Canadians every fell into that camp but it's a majority in Alberta and probably a strong majority even of Canadians who live between Surrey and Barrie. Certainly you can find a comfortable place in Canada with that attitude.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think many people before they come here know that Canada is a western country with some predominant customs and values that can be different from those of their home country, but there is also very strong messaging from Canada that says that if you choose to do so, you can also pretty much live here according to your own old country ways - and raise your kids in them.

That's actually the whole point of multiculturalism. At least the contemporary incarnation of it.

Yes. Even 10 years ago the new Ontario sex-ed curriculm was controversial and strongly opposed by Muslim groups because it taught that same sex relatiosnhips are on par with male female marriage. This was treated as an acceptable view. The Catholic school boards have realized how untenable this was and while it helped the Conservatives get elected it went forward anyway and seems forgotten. I talk to a lot of immigrants who know you have to keep quiet about certain issues. They will mention how homophobic their teenagers are but obviously this comes from the home and they can't express it in mixed company.

You can openly claim all sorts of crazy stuff about Isreal though. The opposite was certainly true 10 years ago.