The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by bridgeoftea

Yeah that would work, although it's just annoying after coming back from travels around the world where so many places are walkable with good transit. While Canada continues to focus on car orientated builds. I understand the chicken vs the egg. Can't get support for transit if people don't take it, but why would people take it if it's not good.

Yeah, it can be quite frustrating coming back to Saint John after being in other cities around the world that do such a better job in terms of creative housing solutions, public transit, or making the most of their coastal geography.

Saint John has great map presence, it’s a city defined by water— both coastal and freshwater. Many other port cities have high rise housing developments overlooking port operations and the coastline. Many other port cities have pedestrian ferries that allow residents and visitors alike to travel across their harbours in a very unique and interesting way— unlike a bus.

Re: “ the chicken or the egg”, a return of a cross harbour ferry could either be in response to more density on the West Side, or motivation for developers to build the projects needed to make the density happen. Certainly a cross harbour ferry would make residential development on the west side peninsula more alluring to big name developers.

As is, there’s many reasons for developers to want to build higher in West Saint John, to unlock some of the nicer urban, coastal views in all of Canada.

The Lancaster Mall high rise idea (perhaps my favourite) is definitely inspired by the high rise malls of Asia where they have shopping and restaurants on the first 5-10 floors and housing for the next 20+ storeys above. Plus, how cool would it be to live at the mall, right?

Even cooler, perhaps, would be waking up to your morning coffee on a 20th storey balcony with Bay Shore Beach and ships off in the distance as the view.

Hopefully that’s the reality one day. It’s not like Canada’s population is going to stop growing. As is, the only coastal CMAs with larger populations are Vancouver, Halifax, Victoria, and St. John’s. Saint John remains the second largest port in Canada by total tonnage, and our container traffic, which was lacking before, is now growing rapidly. Would be nice to see if DP world could create some linkages between developers in Dubai and Saint John, as there’s perhaps no other place as well known for constructing tall, impressive buildings.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by NB_ExistsToo

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-bruns...rk-parking-lot-project-nextgen-1.7339338

This is pretty outrageous isn't it? If I was still in Saint John I'd be putting up a stink... well secretly, as I was a former Irving employee when I was in Saint John .

It does seem they're engulfing most of their current parking lot for the major expansion project, so the new parking must go somewhere, but whew, that'll be a tough pill to swallow for locals. Especially since JDI owns all that vacate land (further walking distance) on that back road going towards CFM.

The project would effectively render Wolastoq park useless, regardless how they calculated "70% of the park remaining". You can't really calculate the cliff face of the park as usable park, you might as well calculate the surface area of the trees as well to increase the park size.

I doubt JDI will have much push back, they should at least be forced into a building a parking garage so less of the park is consumed.

It's incredibly outrageous. I just looked through the more detailed renderings from the city council meeting the other night and just wow... it would be a devastating loss of green space with no plan stated for the future of the property.



They want to have nearly 8 acres of parkland rezoned as stable/commercial. If the parking is really only needed temporarily, then they don't need the long term rezoning, unless they are afraid of the cost of converting it back to a park... but that really wouldn't be much of a challenge or worry for the biggest forestry company in Atlantic Canada. The only long term zoning amendment the city should ever approve for this parkland should be for an ambitious high rise residential project that could retain ample green space.

They could build Underground parking for 300+ cars and have a much smaller footprint temporary parking lot on the surface. They could then sell off this portion of the property to a developer could then build residential towers on top of the underground parking... or Irving could just do it themselves... they are a construction company, right?

Would be quite a convenient place to live and work at the mill, and just a nice location to live in general. I'm very skeptical this property will ever be green space again, or residential one day, if they are granted this rezoning request. Again, the city shouldn't just roll over on this one. Irving isn't about to pull out of an ongoing billion dollar expansion to the mill if the city doesn't approve this rezoning proposal... they'll find alternative solutions to the parking situation and make it work.

I just happen to think underground parking with future plans for substantial residential development on top of said parking, would be the most optimal outcome for the city and that neighbourhood in the long term... it would also leave lots of room for Irving to make a profit from the sale of the property.

Council holds the power on this one... hopefully they surprise us and grow a backbone and negotiate with Irving to come up with a better long term solution for this property.

[KnoxfordGuy]

What year is it? 1952? Insane.

[NB_ExistsToo]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

They do own the park, and honestly as a frequent visitor I never see people in the affected area. I thought I heard it will be reverted back to a park once project is over. It sucks, but we’re talking about a $1,100,000,000 project that will create 1100 construction jobs and 600 long-term jobs and ensure a mill for the long term.

Just because they own the park doesn't mean they just have carte-blanche to do what they want. I live in the middle of a subdivision, I can't just decide to build an apartment building or knock my house down and turn it into a graveyard.

They're not spending $1,100,000,000 out of the kindness of their hearts. They have a business plan mapped out that shows they're making much more than that in the end. What's wrong with them having to build a parking garage, or god forbid, use some of the unused vacant land they already have on Mill St between the mill and CFM.

[TitleRequired]

Originally Posted by NB_ExistsToo

Just because they own the park doesn't mean they just have carte-blanche to do what they want. I live in the middle of a subdivision, I can't just decide to build an apartment building or knock my house down and turn it into a graveyard.

They're not spending $1,100,000,000 out of the kindness of their hearts. They have a business plan mapped out that shows they're making much more than that in the end. What's wrong with them having to build a parking garage, or god forbid, use some of the unused vacant land they already have on Mill St between the mill and CFM.

They have a social license to accomplish this work from the fact that they are a major employer and that while your suggestion of a parking garage could be interesting, they also have to manage the project costs to keep their bankers happy.

Are any unions or other workers rebelling against this project or initiative? If you answer that question you'll get to the source of the social license Irving possesses in this topic.

Said another way: "why are you against jobs, brah?"

[NB_ExistsToo]

Originally Posted by TitleRequired

They have a social license to accomplish this work from the fact that they are a major employer and that while your suggestion of a parking garage could be interesting, they also have to manage the project costs to keep their bankers happy.

Are any unions or other workers rebelling against this project or initiative? If you answer that question you'll get to the source of the social license Irving possesses in this topic.

Said another way: "why are you against jobs, brah?"

No union leadership on the planet would put up a stink regarding social/environmental concerns if it meant even a slight potential of affecting a large influx of jobs like this. That's like asking a CEO to take a modest paycut instead of cutting 10% of their staff.

I just made the suggestion they just use the giant (currently vacant) parcel of land that's beside their mounds of pulp on Mill st (towards CFM). Why isn't that their "temporary" parking lot. I hope you're not suggesting that because I dislike they're effectively engulfing an entire park for surface parking that I believe they should just cancel a billion dollar project? I can be happy about the project AND dislike a specific aspect of said project.

Said in another way "Why are you trying to gaslight me?"

[TitleRequired]

Originally Posted by NB_ExistsToo

No union leadership on the planet would put up a stink regarding social/environmental concerns if it meant even a slight potential of affecting a large influx of jobs like this. That's like asking a CEO to take a modest paycut instead of cutting 10% of their staff.

I just made the suggestion they just use the giant (currently vacant) parcel of land that's beside their mounds of pulp on Mill st (towards CFM). Why isn't that their "temporary" parking lot. I hope you're not suggesting that because I dislike they're effectively engulfing an entire park for surface parking that I believe they should just cancel a billion dollar project? I can be happy about the project AND dislike a specific aspect of said project.

Said in another way "Why are you trying to gaslight me?"

Ask them. They probably have plans.

There are too many contrarians suggesting pie in the sky solutions for other peoples money to take anyone seriously putting up a stink on a marginal park, not publicly owned that they have a need to use to drive economic development. This ain't gaslighting, but calling out the naysayers holding economic development back with contrarian what-if arguments.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by TitleRequired

They have a social license to accomplish this work from the fact that they are a major employer and that while your suggestion of a parking garage could be interesting, they also have to manage the project costs to keep their bankers happy.

Are any unions or other workers rebelling against this project or initiative? If you answer that question you'll get to the source of the social license Irving possesses in this topic.

Said another way: "why are you against jobs, brah?"

Oh, it’s because they gotta keep their bankers happy? Well then!

It’s a billion dollar project. Completely asinine to frame it like they will pull out of the expansion if the city grows a backbone and gives them pushback on this parking proposal.

It’s not a marginal park either, it’s one of the most popular parks in the city.

They were sold all the land back in 1998 for $1 million (a very cheap price considering how much land is there) on the condition it be turned into a park— and it was zoned accordingly. The city shouldn’t just roll over in this. This smacks in the face of “Plan SJ”. It’s a very nice location and deserves better than being turned into a parking lot.

It’s especially offensive considering the name of the park… this proposal’s not exactly helping the cause of truth and reconciliation.

[gtsoc]

I have never been to the park so don't really care what happens to it, but at least this will solve the problem of tourists not being able to get across the road with the addition of the overhead walkway

[DyAm00394]

An updated look at the development stats, "Growth at A Glance", for January 2024 - September 2024.

Image is from the city’s upcoming growth committee meeting on October 8th 2024.

[NB_ExistsToo]

Originally Posted by TitleRequired

Ask them. They probably have plans.

There are too many contrarians suggesting pie in the sky solutions for other peoples money to take anyone seriously putting up a stink on a marginal park, not publicly owned that they have a need to use to drive economic development. This ain't gaslighting, but calling out the naysayers holding economic development back with contrarian what-if arguments.

I'm not asking them, I'm not on city council and I don't live in the city anymore. I'd even be okay if there were plans to change the parking lot back into green space after the upgrades are completed, but from what was presented, that doesn't seem to be the case.

Again, just because I take issue with a singular issue within a BILLION dollar project, does not mean I'm a "naysayer". I want this project to go ahead. Also, a minor delay/rework of parking parameters is the biggest problem they run into within a billion dollar project, they have an amazing project management team, because there's definitely going to be other issues that arises.

[adamuptownsj]

Spoke to one of the guys leading the Hospital Hill project and they intend to break ground for the first building in January.

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Spoke to one of the guys leading the Hospital Hill project and they intend to break ground for the first building in January.

Tremendous news, thanks for the update!

[adamuptownsj]

He wouldn't give me a ton of detail but they have a plan for the whole site the public should see at PAC as rezoning is needed. Roccas are reportedly kicking around a medium sized project on their Golding St lots too.

It would be nice to see the messy tangle of streets and parking lots between St Joe's and Delhi St spruced up and better-organized. A parking garage would be a good addition- maybe on the lots surrounding this one- that would free up a ton of surface area.

[sailor734]

Wasn't one of the buildings proposed for Hospital Hill a fairly significant highrise?

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Wasn't one of the buildings proposed for Hospital Hill a fairly significant highrise?

... per Barry Odgen.

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

He wouldn't give me a ton of detail but they have a plan for the whole site the public should see at PAC as rezoning is needed. Roccas are reportedly kicking around a medium sized project on their Golding St lots too.

It would be nice to see the messy tangle of streets and parking lots between St Joe's and Delhi St spruced up and better-organized. A parking garage would be a good addition- maybe on the lots surrounding this one- that would free up a ton of surface area.

Rocca's proposed project at 15 & 21 Golding, currently vacant lots, is supposed to be 24 units. Lots of people, myself included, are banking on this area getting cleaned up.

[ivegotaname]

Adam from counting crows song popped in my head with all this talk of parking lots. U know the song.in it where he says 'Pave paradise put up a parking lot"

[Helladog]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Roccas are reportedly kicking around a medium sized project on their Golding St lots too.

Maybe they should finish the Harbourfront Residences second building (or maybe they will say it never existed ).

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by Helladog

Maybe they should finish the Harbourfront Residences second building (or maybe they will say it never existed ).

I was just talking to someone who moved here from Ontario about that second building, as he couldn't understand the strange ending to the current building into a gravel lot on Water St.

I'm sure the old renderings/model are still in the forum here somewhere.