The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

Rough estimate $128,500,000 if 1km in length. Excluded expropriation if necessary.

You are probably joking, but I'll bite. There is no way that it would only be ~$128 million, not when the costs of construction make even a basic piece of infrastructure like an overpass cost over $40 million. Tunnels are usually billion dollar projects.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by darkharbour

You are probably joking, but I'll bite. There is no way that it would only be ~$128 million, not when the costs of construction make even a basic piece of infrastructure like an overpass cost over $40 million. Tunnels are usually billion dollar projects.

Not joking, there are formulas for this. 2 lanes mind you. Then again a project could skyrocket 200%

[sailor734]

Just to refurbish/overhaul this tunnel in Montreal is 1.83 billion so a 128m for a new build harbour tunnel in SJ seems pretty optimistic

https://www.parsons.com/project/louis-hippolyte-lafontaine-tunnel-quebec-canada/

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

Not joking, there are formulas for this. 2 lanes mind you. Then again a project could skyrocket 200%

Can you fill us in on the formula? Sounds interesting.

The two peninsulas are not that far apart, so it’s not that hard to believe it could be done in the hundreds of millions rather than the billions.

Personally, I’d prefer bringing back a cross harbour ferry (I think it would be nice to be connected to the harbour like that, and also be a boon for tourism) but a tunnel is still a fascinating concept.

[DyAm00394]

Couple updates from tonight's council meeting, (the summary of the meeting was posted online by the mayor):

"✅ Approved entering into an Agreement of Purchase and Sale with Belyea Village Ltd. for the sale of the former Hilton Belyea arena property at 400 Lowell Street, contingent upon the corporation's proper establishment in New Brunswick. Proceeds from the sale will be deposited into the Strategic Real Estate Reserve. The proposed project is a low-rise townhouse development.


✅ The City has reached an Agreement of Purchase and Sale with Fundy Quay Developments Inc. to advance the development of the Fundy Quay site, which includes updates to the Land Lease Agreement and a new performance clause for a subdivided parcel".

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by DyAm00394

Couple updates from tonight's council meeting, (the summary of the meeting was posted online by the mayor):

"✅ Approved entering into an Agreement of Purchase and Sale with Belyea Village Ltd. for the sale of the former Hilton Belyea arena property at 400 Lowell Street, contingent upon the corporation's proper establishment in New Brunswick. Proceeds from the sale will be deposited into the Strategic Real Estate Reserve. The proposed project is a low-rise townhouse development.


✅ The City has reached an Agreement of Purchase and Sale with Fundy Quay Developments Inc. to advance the development of the Fundy Quay site, which includes updates to the Land Lease Agreement and a new performance clause for a subdivided parcel".

Glad to see a tax revenue generating future for that site, and not a shelter in a residential area. Anyone know what it means re: Fundy Quay? Trying to accelerate the timeline ?

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by DyAm00394

Couple updates from tonight's council meeting, (the summary of the meeting was posted online by the mayor):

"✅ Approved entering into an Agreement of Purchase and Sale with Belyea Village Ltd. for the sale of the former Hilton Belyea arena property at 400 Lowell Street, contingent upon the corporation's proper establishment in New Brunswick. Proceeds from the sale will be deposited into the Strategic Real Estate Reserve. The proposed project is a low-rise townhouse development.

Wonder if it will take up the entire property? One city councillor tried to tell one of my neighbours the city had a plan to build a second multiplex arena on top of the old building… but sounds incredibly unlikely now.


Low rises seem like a bit of a missed opportunity considering how easily ocean views could be attained at that property… I believe anything 2 storeys and above would have a view of the Bay of Fundy there.

Nonetheless, this sounds infinitely better than Brent Harris’s terrible plan.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Wonder if it will take up the entire property? One city councillor tried to tell one of my neighbours the city had a plan to build a second multiplex arena on top of the old building… but sounds incredibly unlikely now.


Low rises seem like a bit of a missed opportunity considering how easily ocean views could be attained at that property… I believe anything 2 storeys and above would have a view of the Bay of Fundy there.

Nonetheless, this sounds infinitely better than Brent Harris’s terrible plan.

Maybe you already know this, but years ago there was a proposal that didn’t go anywhere for a handful of 12 story buildings on the Ft Dufferin property.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

Maybe you already know this, but years ago there was a proposal that didn’t go anywhere for a handful of 12 story buildings on the Ft Dufferin property.

Yeah, Helladog was nice enough to share the renderings. Was quite a different development situation back then though. Fort Dufferin is still zoned high rise residential too. I think in today’s economic climate, the proposal would have been realized.

That general area around Bayshore has some of the nicest coastal views of any city in Canada, but very few people can actually see them from their homes.

It’s too bad most of the high rise residential buildings in SJ are located away from the ocean. Hopefully this will change. The West Side remains a great location to build some mid rises/ high rises with ocean views.

[bridgeoftea]

I think to help some high rise residential, there needs to be a small-ish west side town center where there is a few restaurants, couple of stores maybe. If you could add a road from Lowell to City Line and then add high rises with commercial underneath might spark a bit of a change.

It's shame the area in the lower west where the Tim Hortons is located is on an awful awful awful road. So needlessly wide, terrible pavement as well.

[TitleRequired]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Just to refurbish/overhaul this tunnel in Montreal is 1.83 billion so a 128m for a new build harbour tunnel in SJ seems pretty optimistic

https://www.parsons.com/project/louis-hippolyte-lafontaine-tunnel-quebec-canada/

How much is the Boring Company per m, I wonder...

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by TitleRequired

How much is the Boring Company per m, I wonder...

Aren't bridges significantly cheaper than tunnels though?

[TitleRequired]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Aren't bridges significantly cheaper than tunnels though?

Probably. I just know that the Musk's boring company was an order magnitude cheaper than the competition, not unlike what he accomplished with many of his other ventures.

edit: found it.

https://www.teslarati.com/elon-musk-the-...dollars-per-mile-price-tag-game-changer/

Currently, most U.S. local and state governments (i.e., tax payers) hand over an average of $200-$500 million dollars per mile to construct a subway system, with hundreds of millions more per mile a common occurrence and even a $1 billion dollars per mile price tag having happened a few times already. The reasons for such expense seems to be multi-faceted and stubborn: regulations, unions, and project management. So, when the Tesla CEO and Boring Company founder cited $10 million dollars as the final price of their mile-long demonstration tunnel, including internal infrastructure, lighting, comms/video, safety systems, ventilation, and tracks, he seemed to be threatening to completely upend yet another industry, this one having been at the core of transportation for nearly 200 years.

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by TitleRequired

Probably. I just know that the Musk's boring company was an order magnitude cheaper than the competition, not unlike what he accomplished with many of his other ventures.

edit: found it.

https://www.teslarati.com/elon-musk-the-...dollars-per-mile-price-tag-game-changer/

Currently, most U.S. local and state governments (i.e., tax payers) hand over an average of $200-$500 million dollars per mile to construct a subway system, with hundreds of millions more per mile a common occurrence and even a $1 billion dollars per mile price tag having happened a few times already. The reasons for such expense seems to be multi-faceted and stubborn: regulations, unions, and project management. So, when the Tesla CEO and Boring Company founder cited $10 million dollars as the final price of their mile-long demonstration tunnel, including internal infrastructure, lighting, comms/video, safety systems, ventilation, and tracks, he seemed to be threatening to completely upend yet another industry, this one having been at the core of transportation for nearly 200 years.

It's easy to be cheap when your product is inferior and incomplete.

Musk's planned tunnels were criticized for lacking such safety features as emergency exit corridors, ventilation systems, or fire suppression. In addition, the single lane tunnels left it impossible for vehicles to pass one another in the event of collision, mechanical failure, or other traffic obstruction, and instead would shut down the entire tunnel section. The low capacity of TBC tunnels make them inefficient when compared to existing public transit solutions, with only a fraction of the capacity of a conventional rapid-transit subway.

[TitleRequired]

Originally Posted by OliverD

It's easy to be cheap when your product is inferior and incomplete.

Recognizing Musk is a polarizing figure currently, I would take the price as an indication of what was possible in 2018; and even if the price was double or treble, it still is an interesting data point.

Just like some people are opposed to using starlink even though it represents the state of the art for satellite connectivity while moving or away from connectivity at a ridiculously low cost; lets leave the Musk debate for another day.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by bridgeoftea

I think to help some high rise residential, there needs to be a small-ish west side town center where there is a few restaurants, couple of stores maybe. If you could add a road from Lowell to City Line and then add high rises with commercial underneath might spark a bit of a change.

It's shame the area in the lower west where the Tim Hortons is located is on an awful awful awful road. So needlessly wide, terrible pavement as well.

There’s some hope at King Street West and Marketplace West for more stores and services. I think there’s even some room within the ferry terminal property for a residential development and restaurant, and maybe even the return of a cross harbour pedestrian ferry. Even without a “town centre” I think there’s still potential for quite a few 10+ storey projects across the Carleton Peninsula, there’s just so much potential for apartments with nice views across the West Side’s main peninsula, which has far nicer ocean scenery overall compared to Uptown.

Where there is perhaps the most potential for high rise development, on the West Side, is along Fairville Boulevard. It’s literally surrounded by shopping, there’s already two new 6 storey blocks going up, and there’s lots of room for more development.

High rise developments right at Lancaster Mall and Fairville Plaza would have nice ocean views around 8 storeys and above. A few 20 storey apartment buildings between No Frills and Sobeys could add hundreds of hyper walkable housing units near the main shopping of the West Side.

At the moment, I’m not sure if there’s a single building taller than six storeys on the entire west side, excluding churches and industry. To me, it doesn’t make sense when the area has the nicest ocean views in the city.

[bridgeoftea]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

There’s some hope at King Street West and Marketplace West for more stores and services. I think there’s even some room within the ferry terminal property for a residential development and restaurant, and maybe even the return of a cross harbour pedestrian ferry. Even without a “town centre” I think there’s still potential for quite a few 10+ storey projects across the Carleton Peninsula, there’s just so much potential for apartments with nice views across the West Side’s main peninsula, which has far nicer ocean scenery overall compared to Uptown.

Where there is perhaps the most potential for high rise development, on the West Side, is along Fairville Boulevard. It’s literally surrounded by shopping, there’s already two new 6 storey blocks going up, and there’s lots of room for more development.

High rise developments right at Lancaster Mall and Fairville Plaza would have nice ocean views around 8 storeys and above. A few 20 storey apartment buildings between No Frills and Sobeys could add hundreds of hyper walkable housing units near the main shopping of the West Side.

At the moment, I’m not sure if there’s a single building taller than six storeys on the entire west side, excluding churches and industry. To me, it doesn’t make sense when the area has the nicest ocean views in the city.

Yeah that would work, although it's just annoying after coming back from travels around the world where so many places are walkable with good transit. While Canada continues to focus on car orientated builds. I understand the chicken vs the egg. Can't get support for transit if people don't take it, but why would people take it if it's not good.

[NB_ExistsToo]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-bruns...rk-parking-lot-project-nextgen-1.7339338

This is pretty outrageous isn't it? If I was still in Saint John I'd be putting up a stink... well secretly, as I was a former Irving employee when I was in Saint John .

It does seem they're engulfing most of their current parking lot for the major expansion project, so the new parking must go somewhere, but whew, that'll be a tough pill to swallow for locals. Especially since JDI owns all that vacate land (further walking distance) on that back road going towards CFM.

The project would effectively render Wolastoq park useless, regardless how they calculated "70% of the park remaining". You can't really calculate the cliff face of the park as usable park, you might as well calculate the surface area of the trees as well to increase the park size.

I doubt JDI will have much push back, they should at least be forced into a building a parking garage so less of the park is consumed.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by NB_ExistsToo

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-bruns...rk-parking-lot-project-nextgen-1.7339338

This is pretty outrageous isn't it? If I was still in Saint John I'd be putting up a stink... well secretly, as I was a former Irving employee when I was in Saint John .

It does seem they're engulfing most of their current parking lot for the major expansion project, so the new parking must go somewhere, but whew, that'll be a tough pill to swallow for locals. Especially since JDI owns all that vacate land (further walking distance) on that back road going towards CFM.

The project would effectively render Wolastoq park useless, regardless how they calculated "70% of the park remaining". You can't really calculate the cliff face of the park as usable park, you might as well calculate the surface area of the trees as well to increase the park size.

I doubt JDI will have much push back, they should at least be forced into a building a parking garage so less of the park is consumed.

They do own the park, and honestly as a frequent visitor I never see people in the affected area. I thought I heard it will be reverted back to a park once project is over. It sucks, but we’re talking about a $1,100,000,000 project that will create 1100 construction jobs and 600 long-term jobs and ensure a mill for the long term.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

They do own the park, and honestly as a frequent visitor I never see people in the affected area. I thought I heard it will be reverted back to a park once project is over. It sucks, but we’re talking about a $1,100,000,000 project that will create 1100 construction jobs and 600 long-term jobs and ensure a mill for the long term.

If it’s really supposed to be temporary, the city should come up with a temporary solution to allow them to use land zoned as parkland for a temporary parking solution.

Approving a permanent zoning amendment to change the property to “stable commercial” just opens up the door for this property to be used for other commercial activities in the future.

Let them build their temporary parking lot without changing the zoning. Bylaws, zoning, and parking are ultimately city issues. Keeping the zoning as is protects the city if JDI suddenly decides it wants to make it permanent, or build another commercial facility there. This is a very special place in our city that deserves protection. Granting this zoning amendment would be a poor choice.