Canadian Airport Thread II

[Zmonkey]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

Jazz has a YYC crew base even though there's not much Jazz flying out of YYC these days.

didn't they drop it post covid or was that just the crj's?

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by Zmonkey

didn't they drop it post covid or was that just the crj's?

The last CRJ retired a few months ago. No change to the YYC base that I'm aware of.

[FredB]

Originally Posted by Zmonkey

You can tell who works in industry and who just wants their cities to work. I get people want more routes to their cities and know how airlines think. Airlines are not scared by photo ops. I can tell people that factually. Air Canada always wants to serve LHR but people are ignoring:

Post covid Air Canada expected substantially less demand - they were wrong (as was basically everyone).
-They expected a drop off in business class tickets, again they were wrong. --Super cheap and super expensive have been strong sales for AC and generally everyone
-There were big restraints on both pilots and crew so air Canada pushed everything to its hubs.
-Russia air space, people here are fully ignoring how much this impacts utilization of aircrafts, crew and planes are away longer limiting how much they can go, again pushing people back to hubs.
-Aircraft demands, AC is basically out of long haul airplanes and has other issues on 737 and a220 shifting those to NA use when needed, even using OMNI on a premium heavy route like SFO. They need more planes
-AC has had planes to grow its retreated routes in 2025 (Calgary, Halifax, Ottawa). Nothing in YYC (they have given more to united).
-Than yes, you have the Montreal and Toronto factor. connecting is a normal part of flying.
-India - India has become very profitable for AC. They needed planes to serve that route and there is a reason they are serving LHR - Delhi. It became the new China, and fast. Again no one really expected this.

I don't doubt that Air Canada wants the route (at least when they can serve it conveniently) and I think most folks who follow forums like this understand the challenges but more than a few Ottawa based travelers are frustrated that YOW continues to disproportionately get the short end of the stick as this drags on. In any case, Air Canada gets to do what it thinks is best for its business but those buying tickets do get to vote with their $. Mine will be avoiding AC for a long time.

[fanofYOW]

Originally Posted by FredB

I don't doubt that Air Canada wants the route (at least when they can serve it conveniently) and I think most folks who follow forums like this understand the challenges but more than a few Ottawa based travelers are frustrated that YOW continues to disproportionately get the short end of the stick as this drags on. In any case, Air Canada gets to do what it thinks is best for its business but those buying tickets do get to vote with their $. Mine will be avoiding AC for a long time.

Thank you for saying that. We are not unreasonable, we are frustrated and I’m saying we and not I because I know I am by far not the only one. My wallet votes for AF and PD until AC starts actually flying from YOW. No, YYZ and YUL don’t count and neither does the mediocre 4x weekly seasonal to LHR while similar size cities like YYC get it year round AND with competition on the route. Business is personal.

[Jaws]

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

Thank you for saying that. We are not unreasonable, we are frustrated and I’m saying we and not I because I know I am by far not the only one. My wallet votes for AF and PD until AC starts actually flying from YOW. No, YYZ and YUL don’t count and neither does the mediocre 4x weekly seasonal to LHR while similar size cities like YYC get it year round AND with competition on the route. Business is personal.

Edmonton has almost 2x as many passengers as YOW yet there are zero international flights offered by AC, save for flights to CUN. The only US destination is San Fransisco. No Euro destinations. Ottawa looks really good in comparison.

[fanofYOW]

Originally Posted by Jaws

Edmonton has almost 2x as many passengers as YOW yet there are zero international flights offered by AC, save for flights to CUN. The only US destination is San Fransisco. No Euro destinations. Ottawa looks really good in comparison.

Just because YOW looks good in comparison to YEG doesn’t mean it’s served well. It just means YEG needs more. Not sure what YEG’s data looks like to LHR though. Any idea on the O&D?

[LO 044]

Originally Posted by Jaws

Edmonton has almost 2x as many passengers as YOW yet there are zero international flights offered by AC, save for flights to CUN. The only US destination is San Fransisco. No Euro destinations. Ottawa looks really good in comparison.

I think what you forgot to add is our "Western Canada loving" airline WestJet also offers zero flights to Europe or Asia from YEG. In fact, WestJet has many more opportunities for connecting passengers through YEG than AC does due to AC's limited regional schedules relative to WestJet's yet WestJet does not provide those meaningful international services.

YOW is to the east as YEG is to the west to some extent. YOW should support AF to CDG as we should support KL to AMS.

[Jaws]

Originally Posted by LO 044

I think what you forgot to add is our "Western Canada loving" airline WestJet also offers zero flights to Europe or Asia from YEG. In fact, WestJet has many more opportunities for connecting passengers through YEG than AC does due to AC's limited regional schedules relative to WestJet's yet WestJet does not provide those meaningful international services.

YOW is to the east as YEG is to the west to some extent. YOW should support AF to CDG as we should support KL to AMS.

I definitely have no love for WS's presence in Edmonton when in comes to international travel and the eastern US, but the topic was AC whose service to YEG is abysmal other than mainline Canadian routes.

[fanofYOW]

I have more respect for WS though. WS said they are moving more operations to the West and since then each major city in West has seen significant expansions. AC said the same in the East and yet continue to focus only on YYZ and YUL and once in a blue moon they will throw some other city a small bone to be like “you see we aren’t ignoring you, now shut it”. Lucky for me, I can avoid AC, YYZ, and YUL since the destinations I’m personally interested in using (and have used) can be easily fulfilled by PD and AF.

In other news, apparently Porter won best economy class in the world:

https://financialpost.com/pmn/busine...-economy-class

[nname]

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

I have more respect for WS though. WS said they are moving more operations to the West and since then each major city in West has seen significant expansions. AC said the same in the East and yet continue to focus only on YYZ and YUL and once in a blue moon they will throw some other city a small bone to be like “you see we aren’t ignoring you, now shut it”.

Had AC said they are focusing on the East? The only thing I've heard in the past couple of years is that they're focusing on their 3 main hubs at YYZ, YUL, and YVR, and this is exactly what they are doing.

[fanofYOW]

Originally Posted by nname

Had AC said they are focusing on the East? The only thing I've heard in the past couple of years is that they're focusing on their 3 main hubs at YYZ, YUL, and YVR, and this is exactly what they are doing.

You may be right but what I heard/remember was that they are both becoming more regional to the West and East from articles I read ~a year or two ago when this was beginning to play out.

EDIT: here's one article - https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...-yyc-1.6721375

So you may be correct, I don't think they said it specifically, but rather implied. Unless it was stated somewhere else that I can't find now.

[LO 044]

I disagree in terms of WestJet. They gave YEG and a bunch of other "western airports" flights to MSP and ATL but that's about it. Anything significant and you're flying through YYC. They have also introduced their crap ultra basic fares and sell them for what basic fares used to be. They are lowering the bar for others to follow. Their IFE is garbage and connecting in YYC isn't fun.

I feel that there is less competition everywhere now except YYZ, YUL and YVR. YUL and YYZ have so many other carriers and flight options, the loss of WestJet isn't as big of a deal. YVR has WS and AC and other carriers. Out east, you have Air Transat and Porter. Out west you have Flair which isn't saying much relative to Porter and Air Transat.

Bottom line, I feel like WestJet has more of a monopoly in their neck of the woods than does AC. US and international carrier aren't clamoring to Edmonton, Winnipeg, Saskatoon or Regina.

[hehehe]

Fair enough, but I don't know if I'd call MSP and ATL insignificant though. Neither is YEG getting BNA/SEA etc as well.

As for other airlines not clamouring to YEG/YXE/YQR, there's probably a reason for that, the same reason why WS isn't adding a bunch of international routes to YEG. KLM is for sure making it work, as is DE, but one could ask why FI isn't back yet, or why say BA hasn't come to YEG. WS has too few 787s to really make anything viable out of YEG anyways.

Regardless YYC is very lucky to be getting the WS service it currently has. It's harder to operate two hubs in such short distance from each other, but WS is still expanding out of YEG fairly quickly.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

Just because YOW looks good in comparison to YEG doesn’t mean it’s served well. It just means YEG needs more. Not sure what YEG’s data looks like to LHR though. Any idea on the O&D?

While I can't produce data, it's evident YEG-LHR O&D is substantially lower than YOW-LHR. Gov't traffic alone would make a big difference. Keep in mind this is the start of the return of YOW-LHR. Eventually it'll be year-round again and daily in summer. I think the only reason why it's not coming back year-round to start is AC need the slot for winter seasonal LHR-DEL while the ongoing war crimes occur in certain parts of the world.

[LO 044]

Originally Posted by hehehe

Fair enough, but I don't know if I'd call MSP and ATL insignificant though. Neither is YEG getting BNA/SEA etc as well.

As for other airlines not clamouring to YEG/YXE/YQR, there's probably a reason for that, the same reason why WS isn't adding a bunch of international routes to YEG. KLM is for sure making it work, as is DE, but one could ask why FI isn't back yet, or why say BA hasn't come to YEG. WS has too few 787s to really make anything viable out of YEG anyways.

Regardless YYC is very lucky to be getting the WS service it currently has. It's harder to operate two hubs in such short distance from each other, but WS is still expanding out of YEG fairly quickly.

A couple of points here.

WS started BNA only after Flair introduced the route. SEA has always been served by Alaska Airlines. The most likely reason SEA was added is that along with MSP and ATL, SEA is a hub for WestJet's unofficial partner Delta Airlines.

As many have mentioned before, BA is a premium heavy airline and will never come to YEG. They couldn't make it work at YYC so they will never come to YEG.

As for your last line, this is why YOW also doesn't get as many AC flights. It's geography and the hub system. For me personally, I prefer to have KL to AMS over AC to LHR as AMS is a better option for seamless connections. On top of that you are in mainline Europe and can travel by car or train to your final destination. But yes I understand that for O&D purposes, it seems like flying to London is the top choice.

Originally Posted by Dominion301

While I can't produce data, it's evident YEG-LHR O&D is substantially lower than YOW-LHR. Gov't traffic alone would make a big difference.

I can't comment on the O&D comment but I always wondered about this gov't traffic spin. How many Federal government workers really do fly all around the world? It's difficult for private companies to do this these days with virtual meetings and working from home situations. The federal employees themselves don't want to come in 3 days per week yet they are flying all around the world? If so many gov't workers are flying overseas, they would be flying business class and AC would easily dump an 330 on a route from YOW since AC does go after the business class crowd. You could argue then that BA would also be keen on serving YOW. I am definitely not in the know about the gov't worker issue so correct me if i'm wrong.

[fanofYOW]

I think it’s also important to note that AF is thrilled to have YOW-CDG-BEY right now with no competition. I heard from other people who are more knowledgeable than myself that this is an important route. AC will be competing with this by offering a connection at LHR with MEA.

We all want more service for our cities and in my opinion, the best way to get them in the future is to support carriers who are more prone to adding routes and capacity in that specific city like WS in YEG and PD in YOW. I would pay a hefty premium to use PD’s YOW-LAS rather than a cheaper AC YOW-YYZ-LAS or WS YOW-Western Canada-LAS because I know AC or WS will never re-add YOW-LAS. Even if AC added such a thing, I still wouldn’t use them. No telling if it’s just to get rid of PD then have them pull the route themselves after they succeed.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by LO 044

A couple of points here.

WS started BNA only after Flair introduced the route. SEA has always been served by Alaska Airlines. The most likely reason SEA was added is that along with MSP and ATL, SEA is a hub for WestJet's unofficial partner Delta Airlines.

As many have mentioned before, BA is a premium heavy airline and will never come to YEG. They couldn't make it work at YYC so they will never come to YEG.

As for your last line, this is why YOW also doesn't get as many AC flights. It's geography and the hub system. For me personally, I prefer to have KL to AMS over AC to LHR as AMS is a better option for seamless connections. On top of that you are in mainline Europe and can travel by car or train to your final destination. But yes I understand that for O&D purposes, it seems like flying to London is the top choice.


I can't comment on the O&D comment but I always wondered about this gov't traffic spin. How many Federal government workers really do fly all around the world? It's difficult for private companies to do this these days with virtual meetings and working from home situations. The federal employees themselves don't want to come in 3 days per week yet they are flying all around the world? If so many gov't workers are flying overseas, they would be flying business class and AC would easily dump an 330 on a route from YOW since AC does go after the business class crowd. You could argue then that BA would also be keen on serving YOW. I am definitely not in the know about the gov't worker issue so correct me if i'm wrong.

Connecting thru LHR with AC to onward destinations improved vastly once all of Star moved under one roof. While LHR's not a hub for any Star carrier, it really is a *A hub.

As for O&D and gov't traffic, there isn't much correlation to working in the office and government travel. The longer the route, the more likely there is to still be a substantial amount of gov't traffic. London is without question after Washington the second largest base of public servants outside of Canada, plus all the onward connections LHR affords.

What YOW has lost to Zoom & Teams are the Toronto day trippers. That alone accounts I'm almost certain for almost all of YOW's unrecovered traffic. Transborder in 2024 will finally break 2012's record while international will flirt with breaking 2012's record. Domestic still lags well behind 2018's record of 4 million. Look no further than the loss of more than 20 daily (on weekdays) YOW-YTO roundtrips in 2024 vs 2019 between AC, PD & WS.

[Zmonkey]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

Connecting thru LHR with AC to onward destinations improved vastly once all of Star moved under one roof. While LHR's not a hub for any Star carrier, it really is a *A hub.

As for O&D and gov't traffic, there isn't much correlation to working in the office and government travel. The longer the route, the more likely there is to still be a substantial amount of gov't traffic. London is without question after Washington the second largest base of public servants outside of Canada, plus all the onward connections LHR affords.

What YOW has lost to Zoom & Teams are the Toronto day trippers. That alone accounts I'm almost certain for almost all of YOW's unrecovered traffic. Transborder in 2024 will finally break 2012's record while international will flirt with breaking 2012's record. Domestic still lags well behind 2018's record of 4 million. Look no further than the loss of more than 20 daily (on weekdays) YOW-YTO roundtrips in 2024 vs 2019 between AC, PD & WS.

For YYZ - YOW/YUL, I know a fair amount of people in Law and Consulting who did the triangle day trips a couple times a month. That is now basically over post covid.