Metro Vancouver Bike & Pedestrian Discussion

[whatnext]

Does anybody even use the painted bike lane along King Ed? I've never seen anyone on it, although it doesn't help that West King Ed has been under construction forever...

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Does anybody even use the painted bike lane along King Ed? I've never seen anyone on it, although it doesn't help that West King Ed has been under construction forever...

This doesn't help...

https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.2488323,-..._ep=EgoyMDI0MDkxMS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

It's a long work in progress like how Burnaby does it, unfortunately.

[jollyburger]

A Vancouver man is fed up with what he says is reckless behaviour of delivery workers illegally using bicycles on sidewalks and wants it to stop.

Todd Clarke lives in Vancouver’s West End and says he’s been hit three times this year while walking in a section of the city popular for pedestrians.

“It’s causing a lot of chaos on the streets,” says Clarke. “It’s been getting noticeably worse with cyclists on the sidewalk.”

Cyclists, electric bikes and electric scooters are not permitted to ride on sidewalks, as confirmed by City of Vancouver staff. Motorized wheelchairs are allowed on sidewalks, making them the only exception to the rule.

“I’ve seen everything from careless nudging somebody to physical altercations and there doesn’t seem to be any accountability,” he says. “Not only do they have large carrying cases, but oftentimes they have cellphones mounted to the handlebars and they aren’t paying attention.”

Clarke is concerned there is no way to report the delivery cyclists, should there be a collision or injury.

“There is no way to even identify a company or companies that they’re driving for at the time, so there is no resource for the public,” he says. “Nothing is changing the behaviour, and the aggression seems just to be getting worse.”

He started a petition and is asking the city to consider a licensing system for all commercial cyclists.

“Whether or not this is the path the city takes, I think it’s an opportunity to make sure that the drivers are held to account,” he says.

Glacier Media reached out to three food delivery companies (Uber, Skip the Dishes and DoorDash) and only one responded back by deadline.

'No tolerance for reckless driving'
A spokesperson from DoorDash says it sends frequent reminders to drivers to not block sidewalks while delivering and to follow local regulations.


"DoorDash has no tolerance for reckless driving, which includes driving on sidewalks,” says the spokesperson. "Each and every Dasher agrees to comply with all applicable laws as a condition for using the DoorDash platform.”

The overwhelming majority of Dashers do follow local rules and regulation, the spokesperson said, adding: "Dashers that exhibit unsafe or dangerous driving behaviour may have their access to our platform suspended."

A Vancouver-based defence lawyer believes it makes sense to have a regulatory system for people who are using their bicycles for commercial purposes.

Kyla Lee with Acumen Law says the City of Vancouver has the power to regulate people who are conducting business through its bylaws.

“It also makes sense because of the disruption to people living their lives and the potential for injury or harm that could be caused by people who are riding unsafely, to regulate people who are using bikes in a commercial fashion,” says Lee.

The City of Vancouver says fines for riding bicycles on a sidewalk is a $100 bylaw ticket.

Bike courier licence
When asked if the city would consider a licensing program, a spokesperson said cyclists operating as couriers for licensed companies such as UberEats and Skip the Dishes are required to obtain a bike courier licence.

“They must pass a written exam and pay a fee. Once licensed, they must purchase a bike courier plate and attach it to their bicycle,” says the spokesperson.

Lee echoed a concern made by Clarke, saying it is difficult for people who have been struck or injured by a commercial cyclist to report them or pursue legal action because there is no way of identifying them.

“If they ride off you don’t know who they are,” she says. “You can report it to the police, and the police are not going to conduct an investigation unless the injuries are incredibly serious, and even then, because there's no identifying information on most bikes, it's very difficult for police to locate offenders and to actually get enough information to lay a charge.”

Lee says there is already a regulatory system in place for the business side so the new licensing could be done under the existing business model and would not require more administrative resources from the city.

"Police officers in Vancouver know that this is happening, and yet resources aren't being put into protecting the public from people who are riding their bikes aggressively,” says Lee.

No accurate statistics
Const. Tania Visintin, a Vancouver Police Department media liaison officer, confirmed to Glacier Media that a ticket for riding on the sidewalk is $109.

When asked how many calls involving commercial cyclists injuring people that police respond to, Visintin says there are no accurate statistics.

There are instances where people get injured or are taken to the hospital after being injured, but police aren’t always called, she said.

Cycling advocate Lucy Maloney says the petition encapsulates the unnecessary conflicts caused by the city's failure to redesign streets to reflect significant social changes, especially the massive increase in the public's appetite for food delivery services.

"Food delivery workers bear the brunt of a difficult time and financial pressures,” she adds.

"The commercial streets in the West End are car-focused, lacking any cycling infrastructure and very few designated delivery zones.”

No dedicated zone for delivery couriers
Many restaurants on Denman Street and the lower part of Robson Street conduct business with food delivery workers, but Maloney points out there are no parking spaces reallocated to provide space for those workers to stop.

"The West End BIA has had additional bike parking installed on commercial streets in recent years and the Davie and Bute streets rebuilds are imminent, but the current street configuration makes work difficult and dangerous for food delivery workers,” she says.

Recently, B.C. has become the first province in Canada to provide minimum wage to people who deliver food on Uber, DoorDash and Skip the Dishes.

Starting back on Sept. 3, workers' minimum wage increased to $20.88 and all ride-hailing and delivery workers will now be covered through WorkSafeBC.

Clarke hopes his petition will garner more than 500 signatures. He then plans to bring it to Vancouver city council.

“It’s a matter of mutual respect, cyclists do need to be off the sidewalks,” says Clarke.

https://www.nsnews.com/highlights/causin...uver-called-out-for-sidewalk-use-9551633

[s211]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

https://www.nsnews.com/highlights/causin...uver-called-out-for-sidewalk-use-9551633

Oh that's quite timely. Just yesterday I got the sense that these delivery cyclists are pretty much the same as unlicensed third-world or Montreal taxi drivers. They honestly don't seem to care about the world around them.

[Lexus]

Originally Posted by s211

Oh that's quite timely. Just yesterday I got the sense that these delivery cyclists are pretty much the same as unlicensed third-world or Montreal taxi drivers. They honestly don't seem to care about the world around them.

Given how little they make and how poorly they treated I don’t think they have time to think about anything else other then making delivery asap and moving to another pick up. Plus there is no enforcement so why bother.

[NetMapel]

Pedestrians who don’t want cyclists on sidewalks and drivers who don’t want cyclists in their lane will surely be in favour of safe, separated and comprehensive bike lanes, right? I also like to not deal with cyclists in my way too but people don’t want real solutions.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by Lexus

Given how little they make and how poorly they treated...

then they shouldnt be doing the job. they are choosing this job.

being unhappy with your job does not give you a reason to be terrible to the people around you.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by NetMapel

Pedestrians who don’t want cyclists on sidewalks and drivers who don’t want cyclists in their lane will surely be in favour of safe, separated and comprehensive bike lanes, right? I also like to not deal with cyclists in my way too but people don’t want real solutions.

After the tenth or eleventh cyclist who opts to use the sidewalk and/or road instead of the existing bike lane (if not all three at once), one's opinion might slowly drift from "accessibility" to "enforcement." The "drivers who identify as pedestrians" make all other cyclists look bad.

[NewfBC]

Originally Posted by Lexus

Given how little they make and how poorly they treated I don’t think they have time to think about anything else other then making delivery asap and moving to another pick up. Plus there is no enforcement so why bother.

New regulations as of Sep 3 gave them a $20.88/hr minimum wage, per km reimbursement (not sure how that applies to bikes) and other things like WCB coverage.

Ron.

[NetMapel]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

After the tenth or eleventh cyclist who opts to use the sidewalk and/or road instead of the existing bike lane (if not all three at once), one's opinion might slowly drift from "accessibility" to "enforcement." The "drivers who identify as pedestrians" make all other cyclists look bad.

I understand. I walk, drive, cycle and all that and I understand it's frustrating if you are cut off by a bike. I was being snappy with my response before because I know the same people who are understandably upset about it are also not likely to be fighting for the right solution. I am generally of the opinion that there are assholes in all sorts of forms. There are assholes who drive, bike and walk. Those delivery folks who ride dangerously on the side walk? They will likely be driving dangerously on the road if they were delivering in a car instead. So I would much rather have assholes be riding a bike and/or walking than driving to minimize potential injuries. The solution is to create space for people to bike safely because the alternative is they drive and that's far more dangerous for everybody around. It is reasonable to ask for enforcement when people aren't doing things legally, but let's not kid ourselves here. The majority of the issues on the roads are not pedestrians or cyclists but motorists hurting or killing people or damaging properties. Police aren't even enforcing the rules for driving for many issues we see with our own eyes on the street, they don't have the resources for this. We are so accustomed to bad drivers and seeing cars do silly things that we are less sensitive to it by now. Comparatively, a cyclist not doing something is more novel and stands out more in our minds.

So the solution is simple. Have nice, safe, separated and comprehensive bike lanes that cyclists can ride on so they don't have to mix with others. If you see a cyclist riding on a sidewalk, the question one should be asking is what caused that cyclist to feel that's the more appropriate place to ride? That cyclist could absolutely be an asshole who don't care, but for many others, there are practical reasons due to our current infrastructure.

Here's an example from the DailyHive just yesterday on a "cycle lane" that won't get used: https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/weest-vancouver-bike-lane-planters


Oh the Urbanity from Montreal did a decent videos on this subject recently too! Our infrastructure in this being so inconsistent makes it difficult for people on bikes to behave consistently. Imagine driving on a road have have inconsistent designs. That's a recipe for disasters and people won't follow it.
• Video Link

Finally, to restore our faith a little bit in humanity, note that the vast majority of people do use bike lanes properly, just like most drivers do adhere to traffic. Bad behaviours are everywhere and I'd rather they be walking and cycling than driving
• Video Link

[Jimbo604]

Ontario could ban new bike lanes that require removal of traffic lanes
https://www.cp24.com/news/ontario-could-...sidering,to%20be%20tabled%20this%20fall.

Last Updated Friday, September 20, 2024 12:13PM EDT
"The Ford government is considering restricting Ontario municipalities from installing new bike lanes that would require the removal of lanes of traffic, a source confirms to CTV News Toronto.

The discussions come ahead of the introduction of a gridlock reduction bill that is expected to be tabled this fall. ..."

Could it happen here in B.C.?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Well, I can personally testify that I'd like to not get hit by either type of vehicle, and that a-holes should have the book thrown at them accordingly no matter how they're commuting. I'm willing to bet multiple Costco hot dogs that the rate of cars on the sidewalk is proportionately lower than the rate of bikes.

If bike capacity can be increased without limiting bus capacity, by all means; if not (e.g. Broadway), best to leave the road alone. Either way, colour me skeptical that we'll somehow reach the same level of mode share as Amsterdam.

Originally Posted by NetMapel

Here's an example from the DailyHive just yesterday on a "cycle lane" that won't get used: https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/weest-vancouver-bike-lane-planters

Apparently, the rationale for that one is Horseshoe Bay waiting for additional bike lanes to open in order for the lane to actually be useful. Make of that what you will.

Originally Posted by Jimbo604

Could it happen here in B.C.?

Depends on whether or not our version of Doug Ford gets elected (likely not).

[BaddieB]

Originally Posted by Jimbo604

Ontario could ban new bike lanes that require removal of traffic lanes
https://www.cp24.com/news/ontario-could-...sidering,to%20be%20tabled%20this%20fall.

Last Updated Friday, September 20, 2024 12:13PM EDT
"The Ford government is considering restricting Ontario municipalities from installing new bike lanes that would require the removal of lanes of traffic, a source confirms to CTV News Toronto.

The discussions come ahead of the introduction of a gridlock reduction bill that is expected to be tabled this fall. ..."

Could it happen here in B.C.?

If we elect Rustad, we probably will.

[WarrenC12]

This kind of shit doesn't win any friends:

Cycling advocate Lucy Maloney says the petition encapsulates the unnecessary conflicts caused by the city's failure to redesign streets to reflect significant social changes, especially the massive increase in the public's appetite for food delivery services.

"Food delivery workers bear the brunt of a difficult time and financial pressures,” she adds.

"The commercial streets in the West End are car-focused, lacking any cycling infrastructure and very few designated delivery zones.”

We're talking about the West End here. The whole area is effectively traffic calmed and nobody drives quickly, pedestrians are everywhere.

E-bikes can certainly get the F*** off of the sidewalks in this area.

I see these same clowns around Broadway and Cambie doing the same shit on busy sidewalks. They don't go slowly either. It's clear they have no regard for people walking.

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

This kind of shit doesn't win any friends:



We're talking about the West End here. The whole area is effectively traffic calmed and nobody drives quickly, pedestrians are everywhere.

E-bikes can certainly get the F*** off of the sidewalks in this area.

I see these same clowns around Broadway and Cambie doing the same shit on busy sidewalks. They don't go slowly either. It's clear they have no regard for people walking.

I think you missed the point the person was making.

[NetMapel]

Originally Posted by Jimbo604

Ontario could ban new bike lanes that require removal of traffic lanes
https://www.cp24.com/news/ontario-could-...sidering,to%20be%20tabled%20this%20fall.

Last Updated Friday, September 20, 2024 12:13PM EDT
"The Ford government is considering restricting Ontario municipalities from installing new bike lanes that would require the removal of lanes of traffic, a source confirms to CTV News Toronto.

The discussions come ahead of the introduction of a gridlock reduction bill that is expected to be tabled this fall. ..."

Could it happen here in B.C.?

This goes to the heart of the problem that I described above. Roads in a typical built up grid-system is only so wide and cannot expand. If you design it to cram bikes and pedestrians in 10% of that space, you will inevitably get conflicts. The solution is to look at how the roads are used and better design for it. In urban centres, folks are fighting for scraps while cars take up 90% of the roads without question with Ontario’s line of thinking there. That’s not equitable at all and is a huge step backward in every aspect of making our communities more livable.

Ultimately, if you design a place where cars are incentivized, then people will drive more. Can you imagine more of those delivery people and others walking are all driving? That will create a true gridlock and hazard for everybody around. Will that stop bad actors riding their bikes wrongly? Probably not but it’ll certainly minimize it as more people feel safer riding in properly protected and safe bike lanes. Generally people riding their bikes don’t want to be a road kill.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

I think you missed the point the person was making.

Davie, Denman and Robson might not have bike lanes, but the streets next to them do. If anything gets put on the arterials, it should be bus lanes (that is, unless bike advocates are willing to reciprocate with a trolley route on Comox or Haro).

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by NetMapel

... Will that stop bad actors riding their bikes wrongly? Probably not but it’ll certainly minimize it as more people feel safer riding in properly protected and safe bike lanes. Generally people riding their bikes don’t want to be a road kill.

Yes but no.

Understanding the “Four Types of Cyclists”

The balance between improved perception of safety and improved connectivity can be difficult to strike. Bikeways are often considered safer if they involve little, if any, interaction between people bicycling and people driving or if greater degrees of physical separation are placed between a bikeway and a travel lane with heavy traffic volumes and/or high motor speeds.

However, some experienced bicyclists may appreciate a more well-connected bikeway network that allows them to enter, exit, and re-enter the bikeway freely and can find separated bikeways to be slow and cumbersome to navigate. To address these trade-offs, we utilize a Bicycle Level of Traffic Stress (LTS) analysis, which relies on four generalized bicyclist typologies.

Originally developed by Roger Geller at the City of Portland, OR, the “Four Types of Bicyclists” are meant to guide efforts in assessing — in broad terms — what certain segments of a population require or want in a bikeway facility. Geller suggested that Portland’s population could be categorized into the following four groups:

1) Strong and Fearless: People willing to bicycle with limited or no bicycle-specific infrastructure
2) Enthused and Confident: People willing to bicycle if some bicycle-specific infrastructure is in place
3) Interested but Concerned: People willing to bicycle if high-quality bicycle infrastructure is in place
4) No Way, No How: People unwilling to bicycle even if high-quality bicycle infrastructure is in place

These typologies help us identify which segments of the population need lower stress facilities to try bicycling or to bicycle more often.

Jennifer Dill, Ph.D., at Portland State University, led a survey of adults in the 50 largest metro regions in the U.S. to verify Geller’s theory that roughly 1% of adults identified as “Strong and Fearless”, 7% identified as “Enthused and Confident”, the majority — 60% — identified as “Interested but Concerned”, and the rest — 33% — identified as “No Way, No How”. Dill found that theorized breakdown was remarkably close, with slightly more people identifying as “Strong and Fearless” (7%) and as No Way, No How (37%)...

More often than not, it's the Strong/Fearless 1-7% causing all the problems.

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Davie, Denman and Robson might not have bike lanes, but the streets next to them do. If anything gets put on the arterials, it should be bus lanes (that is, unless bike advocates are willing to reciprocate with a trolley route on Comox or Haro).

What the person in the article is requesting is a re-evaluation of our rights of way and public realm - which is already happening starting with Davie. In fact the preliminary design has neither bus nor bike lanes on Robson.

https://vancouver.ca/home-property-development/west-end-villages.aspx

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

I think you missed the point the person was making.

The point they are making, that many bike advocates make when cyclists are breaking the law.

"It's ok because cyclists have it harder that everybody else." It's always an excuse and a blame game, never taking responsibility.