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  #2221  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2024, 3:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Aimhigh View Post
There's no building boom. Maybe some cities have experienced one but not the country as a whole. Besides that, housing starts have fallen at a time when increased construction is needed. The federal government hasn't done anything substantial at all to address this issue and has been an utter failure at even acknowledging there is a problem.

I don't understand why people defend any government in Canada on this. This is a problem that has been on the radar for well over a decade and the only action we've seen is a few crumbs thrown at it which amount to lip service. The proof is clear for all to see that this country is definitely in the midst of a housing crisis and has been for years. It's ridiculous that anybody would claim the federal or any provincial government has done anything. But, I guess that's what you get when you literally put landlords in charge of housing. I don't know how anybody under 40 can ever be expected to afford a home of any kind and no level of government is doing anything worth noting to address it. A few zoning changes and apartments for single mothers certainly doesn't solve the problem or even begin to hint at the scale of the problem. We have disconnected politicians whose greed has made them forget what we've elected them to do. They don't do their jobs: they look after corporate and personal interests. That's every one of them in any party you care to name. Useless and corrupt.
First of all, yes the building boom was only in certain cities with highest demand, but those were the places that needed the housing so that's not relevant. Second, it isn't the federal government that is primarily responsible for housing. No one is defending the governments when actively acknowledging that not enough housing is being built despite the measures that governments have taken. But to say that governments haven't taken any steps at all is just not true. They haven't done enough or quickly enough and should be held accountable for that. And that's a big enough criticism on its own that there's no need to falsely claim it's even bigger by saying no one has done anything at all. All that does is weaken the criticism since that just gives deniers an opening to dismiss the entire criticism as invalid when it isn't.
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  #2222  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2024, 4:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
First of all, yes the building boom was only in certain cities with highest demand, but those were the places that needed the housing so that's not relevant. Second, it isn't the federal government that is primarily responsible for housing. No one is defending the governments when actively acknowledging that not enough housing is being built despite the measures that governments have taken. But to say that governments haven't taken any steps at all is just not true. They haven't done enough or quickly enough and should be held accountable for that. And that's a big enough criticism on its own that there's no need to falsely claim it's even bigger by saying no one has done anything at all. All that does is weaken the criticism since that just gives deniers an opening to dismiss the entire criticism as invalid when it isn't.
They did nothing until this year when they finally realized their party was tanking in the polls, it wasn’t really until they lost that Toronto seat that the liberals finally put two and two together and realized that “the people” might be mad.

Regardless the architects of these policies knew exactly what they were doing the entire time, they saw what happened in New Zealand, they saw what happened in Australia, they saw what happened in Germany, they wanted to do that here. Too bad the idiot MPs, who could have stopped this just sat there and clapped along.

Every single member of parliament made money on this policy. Some made lots of money. Lots and lots of money.
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  #2223  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2024, 6:04 PM
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They did nothing until this year when they finally realized their party was tanking in the polls, it wasn’t really until they lost that Toronto seat that the liberals finally put two and two together and realized that “the people” might be mad.

Regardless the architects of these policies knew exactly what they were doing the entire time, they saw what happened in New Zealand, they saw what happened in Australia, they saw what happened in Germany, they wanted to do that here. Too bad the idiot MPs, who could have stopped this just sat there and clapped along.

Every single member of parliament made money on this policy. Some made lots of money. Lots and lots of money.
I have no idea what people are objecting to here. I originally responded to the article someone posted from the Vancouver Sun. They mentioned several different measures that governments have taken to increase housing and implied that because they didn't make any notable progress in reducing the shortage, that the problem can't be addressed with supply measures and then implied that we should give up on that and just focus on immigration.

My response was to point out that just because the few inadequate measures weren't successful, that doesn't mean taking more aggressive measures to increase housing supply isn't worthwhile. So I was arguing in favor of more housing and agreeing that governments have not done enough. So it makes no sense that people are seemingly trying to convince me that governments haven't done enough when that was my whole point.

I think what it comes down to is that some people aren't interested in discussing the actual issue and are simply interested in using it to attack a particular government they don't like. Which is fine if that's their area of interest. But I'm mostly interested in focusing on the issue itself so I'm less focused on looking for the best attack lines.
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  #2224  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2024, 7:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
First of all, yes the building boom was only in certain cities with highest demand, but those were the places that needed the housing so that's not relevant. Second, it isn't the federal government that is primarily responsible for housing. No one is defending the governments when actively acknowledging that not enough housing is being built despite the measures that governments have taken. But to say that governments haven't taken any steps at all is just not true. They haven't done enough or quickly enough and should be held accountable for that. And that's a big enough criticism on its own that there's no need to falsely claim it's even bigger by saying no one has done anything at all. All that does is weaken the criticism since that just gives deniers an opening to dismiss the entire criticism as invalid when it isn't.
I haven't falsely claimed that none of them acted. They haven't acted.

Toronto and Vancouver are not Canada. That's part of the problem right there. People in those cities often assume that everybody they speak to anonymously on the internet is in one of those two regions. We're not. Those cities experienced a building boom (for all the good it appears to have done them) but prices have increased far beyond the average salary in most of the country's urban regions. Building numbers are down, not up.

But what was the LPC's first "measure" to deal with the housing crisis? Special bank accounts. That's a slap in the face. It really is. It is the most cynical thing they could do to offer people special bank accounts when the problem is that nobody can afford to save up for a down payment on any home simply because by the time they have, the prices have increased so much that they need to effectively start from zero all over again.

Their next measure was to put a ban on foreign buyers. This is after they'd been alerted multiple times that Canadian real estate has been Laundering 'r Us central for decades. So they created legislation so full of technical and practical loopholes that everything about it was a waste of money and a practical invitation to up their game as far as money launderers were concerned.

Now, they've spent billions for municipalities to re-examine their zoning policies. A complete waste of money. Complete. The money that has actually got to builders to put something up is trivial.

Further, if the feds can't and couldn't have done anything, even if it were true, they shouldn't have promised to do something ten years ago during their campaign. We've been in a real estate bubble for 20 years.

Sure, it's NOT the federal government's responsibility but that doesn't mean they couldn't have done anything. They could have actually discussed it, for example, at one of their high priced retreats. Actually, there's a million things they could have done but refused to even entertain. Now, we're going to get stuck with a guy who's entire schtick is sound bites and show boating while he sets up the corporations for yet more tax cuts.

Their lies have essentially thrown two full generations under the bus so that the oldest generation can live comfortably. I will never vote Liberal again thanks to Trudeau, even though that leaves me with virtually nobody I can vote for.
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  #2225  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2024, 7:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Spocket View Post
I haven't falsely claimed that none of them acted. They haven't acted.
Again, I agree that they could and should have done more. You're wasting your time trying to convince me of that when that was my whole point to begin with. The point of my criticizing the article was to point out that governments haven't acted enough when the article implied that the lack of success was because actions to increase supply aren't effective in general. I and the article mentioned several ways that governments took inadequate actions. So yes they have acted. That part isn't up for dispute. If you want to live in your own reality and pretend otherwise then that's up to you.
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  #2226  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2024, 7:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
Again, I agree that they could and should have done more. You're wasting your time trying to convince me of that when that was my whole point to begin with. The point of my criticizing the article was to point out that governments haven't acted enough when the article implied that the lack of success was because actions to increase supply aren't effective in general. I and the article mentioned several ways that governments took inadequate actions. So yes they have acted. That part isn't up for dispute. If you want to live in your own reality and pretend otherwise then that's up to you.
Well, if pointless policies on bank accounts and a trickle of petty change for zoning changes is your idea of action, then you're right and we will never agree.
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  #2227  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2024, 9:17 PM
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Well, if pointless policies on bank accounts and a trickle of petty change for zoning changes is your idea of action, then you're right and we will never agree.
how about these federal government measure to increased purposed built rentals..


Quote:
The total inventory of PBRs under construction in the GTHA has hit a multi-decade high of 23,376. An additional 159,176 were proposed for construction, with about half or 67,431 approved and in pre-construction.

This growth is primarily being driven by companies like Clifton Blake, Tricon Residential and Fitzrovia Real Estate. These dedicated PBR developers and managers, for the most part backed by private equity, institutional investors and pension funds, are attempting to rebalance the real-estate market in favour of new rental supply.

“Owning and operating PBRs offers a long-term, steady and defensive cash-flow stream that is desired by REITs and institutional investors,” says analyst Kyle Stanley with Desjardins Securities Inc. in Toronto. “Depending on jurisdiction, new-build product is also not subject to rent control, or is given a temporary rent control holiday, so it allows for robust returns, which makes development more attractive.”

Meanwhile, many regular condo builders have been forced to ice projects as a result of higher interest rates and dwindling demand. What’s behind this reversal of fortune? In part, the recognition by federal, provincial and municipal governments that incentives are needed to boost the supply of rental homes if Canada is to ever catch up to other G7 countries on a per capita basis.

“We’ve been lobbying all levels of government to recognize the difference between condos and PBRs for years,” says Myles of Clifton Blake, who specializes in multi-family rentals in Toronto’s core. “Now finally they’re having an epiphany and realizing we need to motivate builders to invest in new rental properties with professional ownership if we’re going to start solving the housing crisis.”

About a year ago the federal government and its housing authority the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp. (CMHC) launched a number of new financing programs intended to bring thousands of new apartments to market as quickly as possible. At the same time Ontario removed its share of the HST and reduced development charges on new rental housing to spur delivery of a promised 1.5 million new homes in the next 10 years.
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/topstori...or-rent/ar-AA1qksEK?ocid=feedsansarticle


Also regarding the foreign buyer ban, what are you calling a loopholes in it.
I have seen that some criticize that foreign students can buy property, but that is limited to property under 500,000 and they have to be working in canada for the past 2 years to qualify.

Rent prices are also down YOY in the most expensive markets, - 9% in Vancouver and - 7% in Toronto


https://rentals.ca/national-rent-report


House prices are also down a lot after hitting a high of 820K in Feb 2022 they are now down to 670K as of July 2024

https://postimg.cc/kD0S7sfz

Last edited by Nite; Sep 15, 2024 at 9:39 PM.
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  #2228  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2024, 4:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Spocket View Post
I haven't falsely claimed that none of them acted. They haven't acted.

Toronto and Vancouver are not Canada. That's part of the problem right there. People in those cities often assume that everybody they speak to anonymously on the internet is in one of those two regions. We're not. Those cities experienced a building boom (for all the good it appears to have done them) but prices have increased far beyond the average salary in most of the country's urban regions. Building numbers are down, not up.

But what was the LPC's first "measure" to deal with the housing crisis? Special bank accounts. That's a slap in the face. It really is. It is the most cynical thing they could do to offer people special bank accounts when the problem is that nobody can afford to save up for a down payment on any home simply because by the time they have, the prices have increased so much that they need to effectively start from zero all over again.

Their next measure was to put a ban on foreign buyers. This is after they'd been alerted multiple times that Canadian real estate has been Laundering 'r Us central for decades. So they created legislation so full of technical and practical loopholes that everything about it was a waste of money and a practical invitation to up their game as far as money launderers were concerned.

Now, they've spent billions for municipalities to re-examine their zoning policies. A complete waste of money. Complete. The money that has actually got to builders to put something up is trivial.

Further, if the feds can't and couldn't have done anything, even if it were true, they shouldn't have promised to do something ten years ago during their campaign. We've been in a real estate bubble for 20 years.

Sure, it's NOT the federal government's responsibility but that doesn't mean they couldn't have done anything. They could have actually discussed it, for example, at one of their high priced retreats. Actually, there's a million things they could have done but refused to even entertain. Now, we're going to get stuck with a guy who's entire schtick is sound bites and show boating while he sets up the corporations for yet more tax cuts.

Their lies have essentially thrown two full generations under the bus so that the oldest generation can live comfortably. I will never vote Liberal again thanks to Trudeau, even though that leaves me with virtually nobody I can vote for.
A few token ribbon cutting ceremonies also pale in comparison to the sea of demand that the feds have introduced.

Just today, Chrystia Freeland announced the Liberal's latest plan to keep the ponzi going....errr, I mean improve affordability.

https://globalnews.ca/news/10757723/otta...mortizations-raise-insured-mortgage-cap/

CMHC insured mortgage cap going up to 1.5 million and will be eligible for a 30 year amortization
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  #2229  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2024, 4:47 PM
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A few token ribbon cutting ceremonies also pale in comparison to the sea of demand that the feds have introduced.
The subsidies have jump started a lot of purpose built rentals though they were mostly in the pipeline anyway. If we add up all the housing eveyr initive has spurred even if we assume all of it wouldn't have been built without the fed $ it's a drop in the bucket. Maybe weeks or at most months of 2023's net migration?
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  #2230  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2024, 8:40 PM
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I
Now, they've spent billions for municipalities to re-examine their zoning policies. A complete waste of money. Complete. The money that has actually got to builders to put something up is trivial.
Huh? where'd you get this from? Only a tiny amount of HAF is going to bureacracy....most is being used to incentivize affordable and sustainable housing.

Where I live, federal programs are driving housing construction like I have never seen in my entire architectural career. My office would typically have about 800 residential units per year, we have 5,000 right now...

Every developer I work with is in full panic mode over the coming election, when the housing policy will become some stupid plan to punish cities to approve more housing or they won't get money to fix their roads and sewers....as if municipal approvals is the reason for the housing shortage.....all of them are trying to get into the ground before an election is called.
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  #2231  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2024, 8:51 PM
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People get mad at the cost of housing, but two-thirds of the country is relying on it for their wealth generation and retirement. This is why successive governments have not made it a priority.....everyone yells at the feds for not bringing down the cost of housing....the second the cost of housing begins to drop, all the headlines are about how housing prices are in decline, like it is a bad thing....its a no win situation....what I do know is that the conservatives are certainly not going to be the government that actively reduces wealth to homeowners....anyone who thinks that is dreaming....that's why their housing 'policy' is just idiotic slogans about gatekeepers

We still seem to be giving provincial governments a complete pass for some reason....blaming the feds is easier I guess.

Last edited by trueviking; Sep 16, 2024 at 9:03 PM.
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  #2232  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2024, 9:02 PM
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The federal government controls the rate of population growth, which is the primary cause of increased housing demand and thus prices.
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  #2233  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2024, 9:14 PM
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definitely not the primary cause........also, the government didn't just increase immigration for fun.


population growth was temporarily increased after the pandemic as a strategy to tame skyrocketing inflation, fill supply chain gaps and repair widespread labour shortages that was caused by the pandemic....had they not done that, we would have had a host of other issues to deal with.

Canada's housing crisis goes much farther back than the recent blip in population growth....that's just a simplistic target for the conservatives to sell people.

We have a population that is aging out of the workforce and the only way to maintain economic growth is through immigration.

fun graph....that line looks pretty straight. https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/CAN/canada/population-growth-rate

Last edited by trueviking; Sep 16, 2024 at 9:27 PM.
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  #2234  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2024, 9:32 PM
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definitely not the primary cause........also, the government didn't just increase immigration for fun.


population growth was temporarily increased after the pandemic as a strategy to tame skyrocketing inflation, fill supply chain gaps and repair widespread labour shortages that was caused by the pandemic....had they not done that, we would have had a host of other issues to deal with.

Canada's housing crisis goes much farther back than the recent blip in population growth....that's just a simplistic target for the conservatives to sell people.

We have a population that is aging out of the workforce and the only way to maintain economic growth is through immigration.

fun graph....that line looks pretty straight. https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/CAN/canada/population-growth-rate
It looks straight because it isn't accurate. The graph underestimates our current population by 2.5 million. It also reports our annual growth rate as 0.84%, when in reality its 4x higher at 3.2%.
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  #2235  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2024, 9:36 PM
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even adding 2 million, it's straight....definitely not the cause of a sudden shortage in housing....and again....there are reasons for it....you can look at housing in isolation but there are many more factors to consider.
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  #2236  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2024, 9:40 PM
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Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
definitely not the primary cause........also, the government didn't just increase immigration for fun.


population growth was temporarily increased after the pandemic as a strategy to tame skyrocketing inflation, fill supply chain gaps and repair widespread labour shortages that was caused by the pandemic....had they not done that, we would have had a host of other issues to deal with.

Canada's housing crisis goes much farther back than the recent blip in population growth....that's just a simplistic target for the conservatives to sell people.

We have a population that is aging out of the workforce and the only way to maintain economic growth is through immigration.

fun graph....that line looks pretty straight. https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/CAN/canada/population-growth-rate
I usually agree with you, TV. However, your graph is off by 2.6 million Canadians. The graph is also hilariously incorrect.
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  #2237  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2024, 9:41 PM
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even adding 2 million, it's straight....definitely not the cause of a sudden shortage in housing.
Pre-covid residental vacancy rates were averaging 1%-2% in most of the major Canadian cities, so flooding in 2 million new bodies suddenly will definitely exacerbate a housing shortage that was already teetering on the edge before COVID.


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Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
The federal government controls the rate of population growth, which is the primary cause of increased housing demand and thus prices.
Agreed. Amazing how many people choose to deny the simple reality of excessive housing demand (politically motivated?).
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  #2238  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2024, 9:48 PM
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It's true that the primary driver of housing demand tends to be population growth. Decreasing household sizes and internal migration contribute some, but growth is the big one. But it's also true that we're not growing that fast nationally that we should have so much trouble providing housing. We have a lot of immigration, but we also have low birth rates and some emigration which would see our population actually decline without newcomers, so much of the high immigration numbers just offset that decline rather than cause growth.

The issue is that immigration tends to be uneven with certain hotspot cities attracting a disproportionate share, while at the same time, those cities have housing supply problems. Most of them have sprawl limiting measures which prevent greenfield development which is good since sprawl creates as many or more problems as it solves. And the sprawl limiting measures would be fine if equal growth could occur as infill, but many of the cities have restrictions on much of their residential land getting higher density infill. So that's why the feds have correctly offered incentives to municipalities to soften these restrictions so that there are less obstacles to building housing where demand is highest.

So it was definitely not a waste. It's was an excellent decision that should have happened sooner in fact. But now that the problem has gotten so big, that policy isn't enough to solve the problem on its own. So they should be criticized for that (being so late) but we also can't pretend it's a bad policy or that it doesn't exist.
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  #2239  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2024, 9:59 PM
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even adding 2 million, it's straight....definitely not the cause of a sudden shortage in housing....and again....there are reasons for it....you can look at housing in isolation but there are many more factors to consider.
For one, it only looks flat if you zoom out to a 150 year time scale and assume growth will revert to less than 1%, but even then not really - there's clearly a step change post COVID. Regardless, none of us will be around in 150 years and the whole point is that we don't have the capacity to accommodate such a massive influx of newcomers over such a short period of time. We've added 3 million newcomers over the past 3 years all of whom require housing right away. We've grown more than we would in a typical decade but without any appreciable increase in housing construction. Yes, immigration is not the only factor. But it's a big one.

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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
It's true that the primary driver of housing demand tends to be population growth. Decreasing household sizes and internal migration contribute some, but growth is the big one. But it's also true that we're not growing that fast nationally that we should have so much trouble providing housing. We have a lot of immigration, but we also have low birth rates and some emigration which would see our population actually decline without newcomers, so much of the high immigration numbers just offset that decline rather than cause growth.

The issue is that immigration tends to be uneven with certain hotspot cities attracting a disproportionate share, while at the same time, those cities have housing supply problems. Most of them have sprawl limiting measures which prevent greenfield development which is good since sprawl creates as many or more problems as it solves. And the sprawl limiting measures would be fine if equal growth could occur as infill, but many of the cities have restrictions on much of their residential land getting higher density infill. So that's why the feds have correctly offered incentives to municipalities to soften these restrictions so that there are less obstacles to building housing where demand is highest.

So it was definitely not a waste. It's was an excellent decision that should have happened sooner in fact. But now that the problem has gotten so big, that policy isn't enough to solve the problem on its own. So they should be criticized for that (being so late) but we also can't pretend it's a bad policy or that it doesn't exist.
Not correct. We are the fastest growing developed country in the world by far, and top 5 overall. All of our peers are located in sub-Saharan Africa.
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  #2240  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2024, 12:46 PM
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Unemployment rate in select Atlantic Canada cities June 2024

Halifax Regional Municipality (HRM) 5.8
Fredericton 4.8
Charlottetown 6.4
Summerside 6.8
Moncton 5.7
Saint John 6.6
Cape Breton Regional Municipality (includes Sydney and surrounding areas) 8.6
St. John's 6.6
Corner Brook 9.2
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