If the US and Canada had been one nation, would Toronto or Montreal still be big?

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by Wigs

Steely, I'll say it again. Besides Montreal, all of Canada's major cities would be Toledo sized

Idk about Toledo sized. Maybe Cleveland sized.

[Steely Dan]

^ if the provincial capital never got moved up to York (Toronto), and there would have been no reason to do so without the spectre of the US hanging over the Niagara region, I can easily envision an alternate timeline where Toronto is currently Toledo-sized and the Niagara region is the multi-million person alpha metro of Lake Ontario.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by mhays

I hadn't thought of that. Today, shipping doesn't seem to be terribly affected.

That said, the length of the winter must have been a big issue in past centuries. A year-round port with a relatively short river freeze would be very different from a port that's inaccessible for several months.

For context, the Port of Montréal was closed due to ice every year from November to May until the 1960s.

It's been a year-round port since then.

[iheartthed]

One thing we didn't discuss is where the national capital of Canamerica would have been. If the Canadas had joined the Revolution there might have been more pressure to have the capital farther north than DC, so that city might not have ever existed. New York or Philadelphia would've made a much more attractive location under that scenario. Virginia would still have been the richest colony that had the most influence on the capital's location, but there would've been a push to have the capital in a more convenient location to be reached from the Canadas. New York was probably the best location for that, since there's only about a 50 mile difference between the distance from New York City to northern Virginia as NYC to Montreal. If Montreal is on track to become the biggest city, New York's location is pretty attractive as the national capital.

[Qubert]

I do think that DC would still be the capital, because during the time of the revolution the southern colonies were still pretty intransigent over the issue of slavery. Bottom line, to get them to fall into line I do believe DC would have come into being to assuage The South.

Sidebar: however I do think the civil war might have happened earlier under this scenario, like maybe 1820s/1830s, as once slaves started escaping into what is now Canada they'd be almost impossible to find, causing massive losses to the plantation economy.

Back to Montreal/Toronto: I'm glad so many see what I see about Toronto becoming a rust belt city. As far as Montreal is concerned, there's still the question of tensions between the French and English speaking communities. In order for Montreal to ecplise the size of NYC under this timeline, I feel that you'd need to totally subsume the French population so that Montreal becomes wholly english-languarge. The reason being is that after the French Revolution France and Spain were both a mess and the only two empires left standing were Britian and Portugal (which were allies anyway), which means global trade was by now almost totally English speaking (The scramble for Africa hadn't happened yet)

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by Qubert

The reason being is that after the French Revolution France and Spain were both a mess and the only two empires left standing were Britian and Portugal (which were allies anyway), which means global trade was by now almost totally English speaking (The scramble for Africa hadn't happened yet)

Are you sure about this? It sounds like something arguable...

France conquered almost all of Europe following the Revolution. She was at her peak for the Napoleonic empire.
Heck, the French troops even got in Moscow, that no one could do since then. Even Louis XIV (the peak of French monarchy) never went that far.
So the consequences of the Revolution are more subtle than just a mess, no matter what English-speakers influenced by the British monarchy think of it.

In the US, I met some people who had little figurines of Napoléon in the cupboards of their dining rooms and they were proud to show me!
They worship the dictator more than the French themselves do.

In any case, no matter what Québec does, France will back them, huh. I can tell.
They want to speak French? That's fine to us. English is only business. That's not the way we talk to our children.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by someone123

In these discussions I think people often underrate how important the big common market in the USA is and fail to appreciate how areas in the USA tend to be more developed than Canada, all else being equal. I think many regions of Canada would actually have been more developed had they been part of the US.

In the alternate universe Ontario there would probably be some successful regional businesses along the lines of a 3M or Boeing. Or as another example maybe some old Canadian universities like McGill would have turned into actual ivy league schools with very large endowments that attract a lot more students. A number of Canadian military bases would have been much larger American bases, and so on.

That was my thought as well. At the very least, the Canadian side of the border would likely have seen a similar trajectory to their southern counterparts - namely, more growth & economic development in the 1800s and early 1900s . As such, parts of Canada like the Prairies and Atlantic would likely have a greater importance than they do now; though recipients of more substantial post-war growth like the GTA and Lower Mainland would have somewhat less.

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

^ if the provincial capital never got moved up to York (Toronto), and there would have been no reason to do so without the spectre of the US hanging over the Niagara region, I can easily envision an alternate timeline where Toronto is currently Toledo-sized and the Niagara region is the multi-million person alpha metro of Lake Ontario.

Toronto was chosen as the capital in part because it was further from the border than Newark (Niagara) or Kingston; but also because of its sheltered, natural harbour and central location on established trade routes. It was a pretty heavily settled area even before Europeans arrived - a decent-sized city was bound to have sprung up in its place capital or not.

In an alternate universe where Ontario's capital was instead located in Niagara or Kingston, I could see it being more like Ohio with several similarly-sized large-ish city as opposed to one of those being the alpha.

Of course, in this universe where the Province of Quebec joined the Revolution, there wouldn't even necessarily be an Ontario; as at the time it was just part of Quebec.

[chris08876]

The dream is that one day Canada and the U.S. merge. The potential could be great power wise. Maybe even economic!

Toronto would still be big, Montreal but I think even more folks would migrate to the South for cheaper cost of living.

[kool maudit]

Parts of what is now the US and what is now Canada will probably join following the failure of the existing federations.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Parts of what is now the US and what is now Canada will probably join following the failure of the existing federations.

There are old houses in Europe that have stood in the exact same place but have been in 4-5 different countries over the past couple of centuries.

It's true we've had relative stability in the post-war era (since one of the main lessons of the two world wars was that unstable state actors were a big factor in conflict) but it's historically and generationally naïve and arrogant to think that we've achieved geopolitical perfection in North America with the way our governance and borders are structured. And that as result that they'll probably never change.

By historical standards, we're probably past our best before dates already.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Acajack

There are old houses in Europe that have stood in the exact same place but have been in 4-5 different countries over the past couple of centuries.

Honestly, there are buildings in North America that have seen two or three as well.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Honestly, there are buildings in North America that have seen two or three as well.

Also true.

[Steely Dan]

Six flags over Texas

[craigs]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

That was my thought as well. At the very least, the Canadian side of the border would likely have seen a similar trajectory to their southern counterparts - namely, more growth & economic development in the 1800s and early 1900s.

Or . . . it's possible that a Fantasy Canada would have uniformly developed just like real Canada did, rather than like the real US did.

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Six flags over Texas

And four flags over California.

[Acajack]

All of which proves that it can happen here too!

[Antares41]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

^ I can easily envision an alternate timeline where Toronto is currently Toledo-sized and the Niagara region is the multi-million person alpha metro of Lake Ontario.

Yes with a larger city at the beginning or end of the Welland Canal. Buffalo would be just a small town, assuming the Erie canal never happened. I didn't recognized the Welland Canal is nearly contemptuous with the Erie Canal being completed in 1829. It also has undergone various modifications to accommodate larger ships, but, it been around for nearly 200 years. If USA and Canada was one nation it would be hard to not recognize it commercial importance to such a country.

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Honestly, there are buildings in North America that have seen two or three as well.

Being that the Americas have all been colonized and invaded, with some continuing to be colonies, most modern countries in the Americas have had at LEAST 2 flags flying over them.

Mexico has had three (Spain, France, its own). Jamaica has had three as well (Spain, Britain, its own). Etc.