Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

So 44% of voters supporting openly secessionist parties + another 24% supporting a party that is very ambiguous about Québec's belonging in Canada. That's like a lot.

Another observation: Brexit supporters also tended to be more numerous among older people, and Brexit won. The thing is, older people tend to vote much more than younger people.

Quebecers young and old turn out big time for referendums. I remember the turnout in 1995 was 93.5%.

As for provincial elections, voting for a pro-sovereignty party doesn't mean the voter is pro-sovereignty. The PQ has been attractive to unions and those who support social programs since its inception and more recently Québec Solidaire has taken that role during the PQ's weakness. The poll I cited shows that 21% of PQ supporters are against sovereignty. Most of those who chose other parties were against sovereignty including Québec solidaire.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

Getting back to the topic of Montreal — Acajack is right that it's still extremely rare not to be able to receive French service anywhere in Montreal, and when it happens it's usually at a fast food chain that has hired temporary foreign workers.

I think anglo Montrealers tend to overestimate the importance of English to Montreal's identity. It's important, yes, but I think what really defines Montreal is linguistic and cultural ambiguity/fluidity. It's a city where identities have always been complicated, and where people interact linguistically in ways they do in very few other big cities around the world. Just for example: there are twice as many Spanish speakers in Montreal as there are people of Latin-American or Spanish origin. This is a city where it isn't weird to switch languages mid-sentence, and that doesn't just apply to French and English.

« Let’s be perfectly honest. Montreal is interesting because it’s French. » -Peter Scowen, CBC and National Post

If you upset the balance it just becomes a bigger version of Ottawa: a typical North American city that operates in English but that happens to have more people speaking French within earshot most of the time.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

« Let’s be perfectly honest. Montreal is interesting because it’s French. » -Peter Scowen, CBC and National Post

If you upset the balance it just becomes a bigger version of Ottawa: a typical North American city that operates in English but that happens to have more people speaking French within earshot most of the time.

Would Montreal be any less interesting if the only language that was allowed to be spoken there was French?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Would Montreal be any less interesting if the only language that was allowed to be spoken there was French?

Well, I was just going to say that Montreal with its interplay between French, English and other cultures is probably more interesting than, say, Quebec City, which is more wholly francophone.

But either are more interesting than Ottawa or Sudbury, in my humble opinion.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

But either are more interesting than Ottawa or Sudbury, in my humble opinion.

Well, almost anywhere would be more interesting than Ottawa........

How about Moncton with English, French and Chiac in competition. Also, the Great Canadian Cultural Mosaic has finally arrived here too. A trip to Costco on the weekend is like a visit to the United Nations. You can't escape the store without hearing at least 20 different languages.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Well, almost anywhere would be more interesting than Ottawa........

How about Moncton with English, French and Chiac in competition. Also, the Great Canadian Cultural Mosaic has finally arrived here too. A trip to Costco on the weekend is like a visit to the United Nations. You can't escape the store without hearing at least 20 different languages.

English is so hegemonic on the northern part of this landmass that anywhere that it dominates as the vernacular is going to almost automatically feel less unique than places where it doesn't.

There are of course a few exceptions like Newfoundland.

And of course, language isn't the only thing that makes a place unique. But it is a huge part of culture and therefore cultural uniqueness.

C'est la vie.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Acajack

« Let’s be perfectly honest. Montreal is interesting because it’s French. » -Peter Scowen, CBC and National Post

If you upset the balance it just becomes a bigger version of Ottawa: a typical North American city that operates in English but that happens to have more people speaking French within earshot most of the time.

You are right, if one completely ignores the history of Montreal, the urban fabric of Montreal, the cosmopolitanism of Montreal, the cultural institutions and architecture of Montreal, the dense population of Montreal, the geography of Montreal, the contributions made by other ethnic groups to Montreal's 'je ne sais quoi' over a few centuries, ...

I guess there is no material difference between Boston and Indianapolis either. Or for that matter, between Paris and Lyon.

If you upset the balance, Montreal just becomes a bigger version of Edmonston or Hawkesbury.

Ontological reductionism

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Well, I was just going to say that Montreal with its interplay between French, English and other cultures is probably more interesting than, say, Quebec City, which is more wholly francophone.

Québec City is more exotic for North Americans than Montréal though. Québec City is basically the closest there is to a non-Anglophone North America.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Québec City is more exotic for North Americans than Montréal though. Québec City is basically the closest there is to a non-Anglophone North America.

Agreed.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

You are right, if one completely ignores the history of Montreal, the urban fabric of Montreal, the cosmopolitanism of Montreal, the cultural institutions and architecture of Montreal, the dense population of Montreal, the geography of Montreal, the contributions made by other ethnic groups to Montreal's 'je ne sais quoi' over a few centuries, ...

I guess there is no material difference between Boston and Indianapolis either. Or for that matter, between Paris and Lyon.

If you upset the balance, Montreal just becomes a bigger version of Edmonston or Hawkesbury.

Ontological reductionism

There are many things that make Montreal Montreal. But the French element is the biggest thing that sets it apart from any other metropolis in North America.

One has to be infected by a heightened degree of ideological sectarianism in order to not see this or deny it.

But sure, a Montreal that would become like Quebec City wouldn't really be Montreal either. That's a truism as well.

[harls]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Agreed.

Mexico enters the chat

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by harls

Mexico enters the chat

Sure. I think that in the context of this discussion (and as is often the case), North America means USA and Canada.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

But sure, a Montreal that would become like Quebec City wouldn't really be Montreal either. That's a truism as well.

Would Montréal become like Québec City if Québec became independent? The jury is out I guess.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by harls

Mexico enters the chat

"L'Amérique du Nord" always refers to US and Canada (+ tiny SPM ). At least this side of the Atlantic.

Mexico is "l'Amérique latine".

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

There are many things that make Montreal Montreal. But the French element is the biggest thing that sets it apart from any other metropolis in North America.

One has to be infected by a heightened degree of ideological sectarianism in order to not see this or deny it.

But sure, a Montreal that would become like Quebec City wouldn't really be Montreal either. That's a truism as well.

This is certainly true for Francophones but for others it's less relevant. Most of the things Anglophone tourists and residents alike love about the city aren't directly related to language. While it once was now even restaurant scene isn't really a function of language other than perhaps a cultural affinity for food and wine. Archtiecture and built form are unique but again not sure that's about language.

[Acajack]

There is a lot of Canadian denialism on here. Almost like people want to convince us that Montreal (and by extension) could lose the predominance of the French language and it would be no big deal and nothing would change.

Sure, guys.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Would Montréal become like Québec City if Québec became independent? The jury is out I guess.

Maybe more like Paris. It's actually getting more like Paris already. Kind of like a crossroads of the international Francophonie feel. Though with much more of local anglophone and global anglosphere feel as well. The latter which would probably decline under an independence scenario.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

There is a lot of Canadian denialism on here. Almost like people want to convince us that Montreal (and by extension) could lose the predominance of the French language and it would be no big deal and nothing would change.

Sure, guys.

Well I think predominance of French is very secure. I don't think 80-70% French dominace wouldn't change much. There might be a few more places where monolingual French speakers have to deal with English and I understand the jingoism and consternation that creates. It's the same thing English Canadians feel not getting English service in Montreal. But even this 10% drop is at worst a generation or two away.

I also know the thought of the above is why many think French is only secure with a seperate country and that is reasonable though I think the people who can't deal with ordering Indian food in English are already for seperation.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

This is certainly true for Francophones but for others it's less relevant. Most of the things Anglophone tourists and residents alike love about the city aren't directly related to language.

Or so they think, but in fact the way Montréal is is all related to language, whether they realize it or not, otherwise Montréal would just be another Detroit or St Louis, two cities that used to be French too.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

This is certainly true for Francophones but for others it's less relevant. Most of the things Anglophone tourists and residents alike love about the city aren't directly related to language. While it once was now even restaurant scene isn't really a function of language other than perhaps a cultural affinity for food and wine.

That makes no sense. Montreal's cuisine has maintained its franco-centric anchor because of its ongoing linguistic and cultural exchanges with France and the francophonie. I'm with Acajack that you can't simply divorce the two concepts.

Archtiecture and built form are unique but again not sure that's about language.

Initiatives like the REV and the pietonnes are without a doubt inspired by Paris. Without the French linguistic and cultural links, I would find it hard to believe Montreal would continue to follow in the footsteps of Paris in defining its modern design language. Without French, more likely it'll just be another blander American city, like a mega West Island.