Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[MonctonRad]

Well, I guess the Quebecois nationalists can take comfort in the fact that at least they aren't as bad as those damned Flemish people.

I wonder how you would react if Québécois parties demonstrated in the streets of Montréal with signs saying "Les Anglos retournez chez vous", "Montréal est française", to protest against McGill being an English-speaking university...

I seem to recall street demonstrations in Montreal where the the nationalist participants kept shouting "le Quebec pour Quebecoise....."

I believe the sentiment is similar.

[kool maudit]

There was a lot of "Anglo go home", "101 or 401" etc. graffiti around Montreal when I moved there just after the last referendum. Sometimes I would feel some type of way about it.

Still... a Quebec nationalist who is careful to make sure his nationalism doesn't veer illiberal is not a nationalist. He's a liberal.

And Quebec under liberalism becomes Anglophone.

So I always kind of got it.

[Acajack]

Yes, there definitely has been an anti-anglo streak in the Quebec separatist and nationalist movement.

It's not pretty, but how could there not be?

They're the historical nemesis.

[MolsonExport]

It is better to be an illiberal Nationalist?

Ok then.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

It is better to be an illiberal Nationalist?

Ok then.

Maybe not better but definitely typical or even logical.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The Flemish nationalist parties turned the University of Louvain (previously the oldest and largest French-speaking university of Belgium) into a Dutch-speaking university, and expelled all its French-speaking students (with violent demos) in the 1960s, French-speaking students who had to seek refuge in Wallonia where the Université de Louvain-la-Neuve was founded for the expelled French-speaking students.

So, when are you going to denounce the Flemish authorities?

By the way, they did the same at the University of Ghent, which was Dutchified entirely (not a single class in French today).

The demos in the 1960s:

("Louvain is Flemish")


("Walen" = French-speaking students)


I wonder how you would react if Québécois parties demonstrated in the streets of Montréal with signs saying "Les Anglos retournez chez vous", "Montréal est française", to protest against McGill being an English-speaking university...

Thanks for telling me what I already know (I am part Flemish, BTW). On this occasion, I will gladly denounce the Flemish authorities.

I have heard "Le Québec aux Québécois!!" screamed more times than I can count. They weren't including Anglo and Allo Quebeckers when they were chanting this. Dozens of times walking the streets with friends and family, I have had "Ici c'est le Québec et ici, on parle français!!" shouted at me (as if I would be speaking French to my Anglophone family members and Anglophone friends.

It's ugly, no matter what group is doing it, and no matter to what group they are doing it to.

Look, I spent 30 years living in Quebec...during the late 60, most of the seventies, all of the eighties, much of the nineties, and much of the 00s. I have anglophone and francophone family members living in the province, plus many friends, so I am back there several times per year. I was there for two referendums. I was there for the election of the PQ in 1976. I was born in Montreal. I worked for nearly 20 years in that province, mostly in French. I went through French immersion, and both my children went through French immersion. Stop presuming to tell me my business.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

It is better to be an illiberal Nationalist?

Ok then.

From the perspective of securing nationalist aims in this context... probably?

Bill 101 is illiberal. A liberal approach would be for each business to decide the sort of language usage that would best serve them. But if you want to get to that goal of securing French as the public tongue, you want to tamp that down.

I'm tactically assuming a stance where Louisiana is an unacceptable outcome, even if there are forces naturally pulling that way.


This isn't my personal stance, which as an anglophone is more ambiguous. My feeling is generally that the French fact in North America has a high historical value, and I don't begrudge francophones a bit of "colouring outside the lines" to secure it. But if that were to falter, the consolation prize of Montreal rejoining the list of the English-speaking world's great cities wouldn't hit me too hard either.

Why would it? That's my list.

[MolsonExport]

Maybe it would have been logical to bar non-native Anglos, like yourself, from moving to Quebec in the first place? Would that have been legitimate, in this context? How far should they be able to go? Where do you draw the line?

I don't have the answers, btw, but that doesn't mean that lines cannot be crossed. I actually support much of the spirit of Bill 101, because I do not want Quebec to lose its French character and unique culture.

Making English subordinate to French on signage? check
Making French a major and mandatory part of elementary and high school curriculums? check
Requiring the children of (non-Canadian) newcomers to Quebec to attend French language schools? check
Banning English on signage? Nope
Converting Anglo universities to French? Nope

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Look, I spent 30 years living in Quebec...during the late 60, most of the seventies, all of the eighties, much of the nineties, and much of the 00s. I have anglophone and francophone family members living in the province, plus many friends, so I am back there several times per year. I was there for two referendums. I was there for the election of the PQ in 1976. I was born in Montreal. I worked for nearly 20 years in that province, mostly in French. I went through French immersion, and both my children went through French immersion. Stop presuming to tell me my business.

But, you will never be chez nous......... Pity.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Maybe it would have been logical to bar non-native Anglos, like yourself, from moving to Quebec in the first place? Would that have been legitimate, in this context? How far should they be able to go? Where do you draw the line?

I don't have the answers, btw, but that doesn't mean that lines cannot be crossed. I actually support much of the spirit of Bill 101, because I do not want Quebec to lose its French character and unique culture.

I was speaking from the perspective of a Quebec nationalist considering tactics. That's obviously not my personal perspective, and is in fact at odds with my interests.

[harls]

Yesterday I went to pick up some shit from Jean Coutu (Plateau area of Gatineau). Ahead of me, I heard the cashier speaking flawless english to a woman. When it was my turn, she looked at me and said 'Hello'. Her name tag said 'Michelle' (I guess that could be construed as English or French).

I said 'bonjour' as I always do in retail spaces here. The exchange completed in French.

Not sure if I look english or something or if it's a sign that the 'enemy' is extending its vile consuming influence across the border.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by harls

Yesterday I went to pick up some shit from Jean Coutu (Plateau area of Gatineau). Ahead of me, I heard the cashier speaking flawless english to a woman. When it was my turn, she looked at me and said 'Hello'. Her name tag said 'Michelle' (I guess that could be construed as English or French).

I said 'bonjour' as I always do in retail spaces here. The exchange completed in French.

Not sure if I look english or something or if it's a sign that the 'enemy' is extending its vile consuming influence across the border.

''Exisential threat'' is probably a more accurate term.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

''Exisential threat'' is probably a more accurate term.

Tomato, tomahto........

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Bill 101 is illiberal. A liberal approach would be for each business to decide the sort of language usage that would best serve them.

There's a difference between affirmative action (or "discrimination positive" as it's called in a less euphemistic way in French... the Anglophones always have a tendency to use euphemisms, whereas the Francophones are usually more blunt...), which is essentially what the government of Québec has done for the Francophones, and exclusion, which is what the Flemish nationalists have done. For example both territories are officially unilingual (French in Québec, Dutch in Flanders), but in Québec the Anglophones are usually answered in English by civil servants if they can speak English, whereas in Flanders the civil servants make a point (in fact they are required to) NOT to answer in French when asked questions by Francophones. This is even more extreme considering this policy is applied only 5 km from the city center of Brussels in all directions. Imagine how the Anglophone Torontonians would react if the province of Québec controlled all the municipalities/suburbs only 5 km from downtown Toronto, and required the municipal and provincial employees in those municipalities NOT to talk in English to the Anglophone Torontonians.

So there's "illiberal" and "illiberal" really.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by harls

Yesterday I went to pick up some shit from Jean Coutu (Plateau area of Gatineau). Ahead of me, I heard the cashier speaking flawless english to a woman. When it was my turn, she looked at me and said 'Hello'. Her name tag said 'Michelle' (I guess that could be construed as English or French).

I said 'bonjour' as I always do in retail spaces here. The exchange completed in French.

Not sure if I look english or something or if it's a sign that the 'enemy' is extending its vile consuming influence across the border.

I think it is because at Jean-Coutu, you'll find it all, even a friend.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by harls

Yesterday I went to pick up some shit from Jean Coutu (Plateau area of Gatineau). Ahead of me, I heard the cashier speaking flawless english to a woman. When it was my turn, she looked at me and said 'Hello'. Her name tag said 'Michelle' (I guess that could be construed as English or French).

I said 'bonjour' as I always do in retail spaces here. The exchange completed in French.

Not sure if I look english or something or if it's a sign that the 'enemy' is extending its vile consuming influence across the border.

In Paris in touristy areas I see more and more staff addressing me straight in English. It's getting more and more ANNOYING! Usually I can guess when they are going to address me in English, so I "pre-empt" the conversation and say "je suis Français" or "vous pouvez parler français". Most always I get a sigh of relief* from them, it's noticeable (I suppose in Québec I wouldn't get a sigh of relief in such a situation). Most of these vendors have a terrible English accent, and their English is very rudimentary.

*As in "yay, back to the comfort of mother tongue!" seems to be how the vendors react.

[New Brisavoine]

Anyway, changing subject, a question for the Québécois here, since the month is ending: these days in Québec, do you hear people pronouncing "août" as "oute" more often than you used to? or just the same? or not at all? I was reading an article about that today, from the European side of it (where "oute" has now become ubiquitous).

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

I think it is because at Jean-Coutu, you'll find it all, even a friend.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Anyway, changing subject, a question for the Québécois here, since the month is ending: these days in Québec, do you hear people pronouncing "août" as "oute" more often than you used to? or just the same? or not at all? I was reading an article about that today, from the European side of it (where "oute" has now become ubiquitous).

It's still a silent T 99.9% of the time here. Pronouncing it with the T still stands out here, though we're all aware that's how the French say it.

Same with "but" (goal) here, which is always a silent T, contrary to France.

It's not like certain other French usages like "weekend" instead of our "fin de semaine". Weekend is now co-equal with fin de semaine in terms of how often you hear it.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Same with "but" (goal) here, which is always a silent T, contrary to France.

Including in un but au foot ??

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's not like certain other French usages like "weekend" instead of our "fin de semaine". Weekend is now co-equal with fin de semaine in terms of how often you hear it.

Talking of Québécois usage, the other day a Canadian website asked me whether I accepted "balises de notifications" or something like that, otherwise known here as... "cookies"!

One wonders why France is so unable to create French terms for modern realities... We are so subservient to the US and their mass culture!