Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

If we can't replace the monarchy for legal or constitutional reasons, nothing stop us to make it less visible. Do we really need the image of a king or a queen on our money? The Governor General could just be like another higher up civil servant. An we definitely dont need to have elected politicians or public servants swearing an oath to a monarch, we dont have that in Québec and things dont go any worse that in the ROC because of that.

Well things are obvioulsy a lot worse in terms of loyalty to crown and country though though the cause and effect of that is probably backwards.

I think being dishonest about your system of government isn't helpful. Have the guts to make constitutional change or be loyal to the system you have.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Justanothermember

I think I'm right, you still are bitter about losing Nouveau France to the English, and the Yanks for that matter, but that doesn't mean you have any ties to this country besides speaking a similar language, which is quite different from Francais in Quebec. Are you just as concerned about the rest of the French-speaking population in Canada, or do they not count simply because they live in English-dominant areas of the country?

There are other English-speaking countries around this world, yet does that mean I have any ties to them besides a similar language? No, that is a silly notion. You have no more ties to Canada than I do to Ireland.

Please don’t speak on behalf of Canadian Francophones. We are not Frenchmen who happen to live in Canada. We are our own thing. But we do have a special relationship with the French and France that we don’t have with the British…. er…. “Canadian” crown.

[Justanothermember]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Please don’t speak on behalf of Canadian Francophones. We are not Frenchmen who happen to live in Canada. We are our own thing. But we do have a special relationship with the French and France that we don’t have with the British…. er…. “Canadian” crown.

Righteo. I happen to know plenty of Franco-Manitobains who simply don't see this as an issue and do not harbour the bitterness yourself and others seem to display in spades. I feel comfortable speaking to their opinions as I have grown up with them and know them well enough to do so. They see themselves as Canadians, but I am sure you will call yourself more unique because Quebec, making them less French than yourself. It's pretty clear you are a Seperatiste, given your tone, and that is cool. You at least have a dog in this situation, people from France (or anywhere outside of Canada for that matter) do not.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Anyway, just discovered this today. The prime minister of France in 1934. Doesn't he have an accent that could sound almost from Québec? It's the missing link between today's France's French and today's Québec's French I guess!

• Video Link

That’s very interesting! Educated people in Quebec at that time like politicians sounded a bit like that.

Interesting he is from Occitanie in southern France which has few historical ties to French Canada.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Justanothermember

I think I'm right, you still are bitter about losing Nouveau France to the English

That's "la Nouvelle France", not "le Nouveau France". Did you sleep during those French classes?

Originally Posted by Justanothermember

besides speaking a similar language, which is quite different from Francais in Quebec.

Ah, that old trope. Long time I had not heard it.

Originally Posted by Justanothermember

There are other English-speaking countries around this world, yet does that mean I have any ties to them besides a similar language? No, that is a silly notion. You have no more ties to Canada than I do to Ireland.

If you're ever in Taiwan someday as I was, you'll very soon realize you'll find it much easier to befriend the Irish (or the Americans, or the Brits), than the Taiwanese. A common language does create ties.

Once I was in the bus in London, and there was a middle-aged Black African guy who entered the bus, and he talked with another middle-aged Black African who was the ticket inspector in the bus, an acquaintance of him apparently, and he told him in French that his wife had ditched him, and when he arrived at their appartement the night before he couldn't open the door because she had changed the lock, and he was without a place to sleep now, etc. I couldn't help feeling a connection, even though I'm not African. A common language, especially in a country that uses another one, immediately creates a connection (no other passengers in the bus could have understood him). I'm sure the Québécois forumers here would have felt a connection too, despite the fact Africa is as foreign to them as Asia.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Justanothermember

Righteo. I happen to know plenty of Franco-Manitobains who simply don't see this as an issue and do not harbour the bitterness yourself and others seem to display in spades. I feel comfortable speaking to their opinions as I have grown up with them and know them well enough to do so. They see themselves as Canadians, but I am sure you will call yourself more unique because Quebec, making them less French than yourself. It's pretty clear you are a Seperatiste, given your tone, and that is cool. You at least have a dog in this situation, people from France (or anywhere outside of Canada for that matter) do not.

I’m not even from Quebec originally.

[Justanothermember]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I’m not even from Quebec originally.

Cool, that makes you even more unique

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

That's "la Nouvelle France", not "le Nouveau France". Did you sleep during those French classes?


Ah, that old trope. Long time I had not heard it.


If you're ever in Taiwan someday as I was, you'll very soon realize you'll find it much easier to befriend the Irish (or the Americans, or the Brits), than the Taiwanese. A common language does create ties.

Once I was in the bus in London, and there was a middle-aged Black African guy who entered the bus, and he talked with another middle-aged Black African who was the ticket inspector in the bus, an acquaintance of him apparently, and he told him in French that his wife had ditched him, and when he arrived at their appartement the night before he couldn't open the door because she had changed the lock, and he was without a place to sleep now, etc. I couldn't help feeling a connection, even though I'm not African. A common language, especially in a country that uses another one, immediately creates a connection (no other passengers in the bus could have understood him). I'm sure the Québécois forumers here would have felt a connection too, despite the fact Africa is as foreign to them as Asia.

Language is an extremely powerful generator of affinities. Even more powerful than skin colour in many cases.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Justanothermember

Cool, that makes you even more unique

I like to think so.

[Justanothermember]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

That's "la Nouvelle France", not "le Nouveau France". Did you sleep during those French classes?


Ah, that old trope. Long time I had not heard it.


If you're ever in Taiwan someday as I was, you'll very soon realize you'll find it much easier to befriend the Irish (or the Americans, or the Brits), than the Taiwanese. A common language does create ties.

Once I was in the bus in London, and there was a middle-aged Black African guy who entered the bus, and he talked with another middle-aged Black African who was the ticket inspector in the bus, an acquaintance of him apparently, and he told him in French that his wife had ditched him, and when he arrived at their appartement the night before he couldn't open the door because she had changed the lock, and he was without a place to sleep now, etc. I couldn't help feeling a connection, even though I'm not African. A common language, especially in a country that uses another one, immediately creates a connection (no other passengers in the bus could have understood him). I'm sure the Québécois forumers here would have felt a connection too, despite the fact Africa is as foreign to them as Asia.

I have basic French-Canadian knowledge that I only use orally and hardly ever in written format, but cool of you to take notice. And you are right, it is Nouvelle France. My mistake

I don't see language as being the mega cultural tie you do obviously, and never will. Agree to disagree!

Continue on with your anti-English, anti-monarchy and likely separatist rhetoric

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Language is an extremely powerful generator of affinities. Even more powerful than skin colour in many cases.

Yes, I agree with that (the last part). I feel immediately closer to a Francophone African than to a White Australian. It's probably the same for most Québécois.

It's perhaps something the Anglophones realize less, because English being today's lingua franca, they sort of assume that everybody speaks English, so perhaps they feel less affinity for people who speak English, I don't know. But for other languages it's very obvious.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Justanothermember

Continue on with your anti-English, anti-monarchy and likely separatist rhetoric

I'm actually a monarchist (yeap, there are a few % of French who are, although my view is the vast majority of French people are subconsciously monarchists who ignore they are, but that's another issue!). But I find the concept of having a foreign monarch completely absurd for new world countries. Britain is fine with a monarchy, and France would probably be better with a constitutional monarchy (alas the Count of Chambord completely derailed the restauration of the monarchy in 1873 by insisting on the white monarchical flag instead of the Tricolor), but it's frankly ridiculous for countries like Australia, Canada, or New Zealand.

Anyway, sooner or later Australia will be a republic, it's only a question of time, so what will Canada do then? No one wants to raise the issue because no one wants to embark on another constitutional debate with Québec in the middle of it, that's the truth if you're honest with it.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Yes, I agree with that (the last part). I feel immediately closer to a Francophone African than to a White Australian. It's probably the same for most Québécois.

It's perhaps something the Anglophones realize less, because English being today's lingua franca, they sort of assume that everybody speaks English, so perhaps they feel less affinity for people who speak English, I don't know. But for other languages it's very obvious.

Until they end up in places like South America and the former Russian empire where English isn’t as much of a lingua franca and even staff in major downtown hotels may not speak it.

Then language affinities become important.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Until they end up in places like South America and the former Russian empire where English isn’t as much of a lingua franca and even staff in major downtown hotels may not speak it.

Then language affinities become important.

I saw that in Taiwan. That's why I was mentioning it.

Another thing I saw in Taiwan was how we, Europeans, from across different languages, feel much closer to each other than we do with the Americans. That's not something you realize in Europe. We tend to overemphasize our differences in Europe. But in Taiwan it was so obvious we felt closer to each other Europeans than to the Americans. That was quite an enlightening moment for me.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Well things are obvioulsy a lot worse in terms of loyalty to crown and country though though the cause and effect of that is probably backwards.

I think being dishonest about your system of government isn't helpful. Have the guts to make constitutional change or be loyal to the system you have.

Not caring about the Crown and not drinking blindly the Canadian Kool-Aid doesn't hinder how Québec is run.

If we can't make the constitutional changes (and it seems we can't), then keeping the controversial aspect of the monarchy hidden is a pragmatic plan B.

[Acajack]

When people like Canadian francophones or foreigners make fun of or criticize the monarchy in Canada, many Anglo-Canadians like to respond defensively that it's just symbolic and that nobody in Canada gives a shit about the Crown and the royals.

This is hard to reconcile with the passionate defence of the monarchy that we always get when we start discussing the idea of getting rid of it and replacing it with something else, how it's supposedly better and more stable than other non-hereditary system, and that there are somehow no interesting alternatives to it that we could find.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

When people like Canadian francophones or foreigners make fun of or criticize the monarchy in Canada, many Anglo-Canadians like to respond defensively that it's just symbolic and that nobody in Canada gives a shit about the Crown and the royals.

This is hard to reconcile with the passionate defence of the monarchy that we always get when we start discussing the idea of getting rid of it and replacing it with something else, how it's supposedly better and more stable than other non-hereditary system, and that there are somehow no interesting alternatives to it that we could find.

I think that is a pretty lame defense. I mean symbols matter but there are also a lot of people who do care about it. I guess less and less with non Commonwealth immigration or many who view the UK with hostility from their own countries disdain for the crown. The GG has authority because of the crown. If she was merely appointed by the government the check and balance would be lost even if it is very rarely used worldwide.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I think that is a pretty lame defense. I mean symbols matter but there are also a lot of people who do care about it. I guess less and less with non Commonwealth immigration or many who view the UK with hostility from their own countries disdain for the crown. The GG has authority because of the crown. If she was merely appointed by the government the check and balance would be lost even if it is very rarely used worldwide.

But that check and balance could still be achieved by choosing the head of state (say a president, or even a non-monarchical GG) via its own distinct democratic process.

(Note that at the moment the GG isn't really a true check and balance because it's the PM (with the Cabinet I assume) that names the GG anyway.)

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

But that check and balance could still be achieved by choosing the head of state (say a president, or even a non-monarchical GG) via its own distinct democratic process.

(Note that at the moment the GG isn't really a true check and balance because it's the PM (with the Cabinet I assume) that names the GG anyway.)

The GG is appointed by the King. If we had a truly facist PM who tried to fire the current GG to appoint a Yes man the soverign could step in. Because that is constitutioally valid it is possible the institutions (such as the military) would support that. Kind of rare far fetched but in theory the threat is there.

An elected president would have the opposite problem. A Lberal President elected in say 2022 for a 6 year term could block anything she considered extreme and would have democratic authority to do that. Likely there would be some kind of over-ride but if the position is really to have no power that would eliminate an control over the PM who already is nearly a dictator in Canada.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

The GG is appointed by the King. If we had a truly facist PM who tried to fire the current GG to appoint a Yes man the soverign could step in. Because that is constitutioally valid it is possible the institutions (such as the military) would support that. Kind of rare far fetched but in theory the threat is there.

An elected president would have the opposite problem. A Lberal President elected in say 2022 for a 6 year term could block anything she considered extreme and would have democratic authority to do that. Likely there would be some kind of over-ride but if the position is really to have no power that would eliminate an control over the PM who already is nearly a dictator in Canada.

The GG is really named by the PM and the King just rubber-stamps it.

Fascism and fascists don't usually walk in the door with the word FASCIST tattoed on the forehead.

As such a Donald Trump type (since he is considered fascistic by many) could become PM of Canada and want to name Marjorie Taylor Greene or Lauren Boebert as GG and King Charles III would still rubber-stamp it.

I'd bet you a million bucks.