Trans Canada Highway Twinning: Segments U/C

[Taeolas]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

Drove I-95 in Maine this week from the NB border to Bangor. Have to say what an excellent highway to drive. Very well maintained with very few bumps. Heading south, traffic very light until around Exit 227 for Lincoln. From that point southwards, traffic did noticeably pick up.

Looks like I-95 will not be extended to Fort Kent anytime soon.
https://www.bangordailynews.com/2024...nsion-for-now/

I'm not surprising. I-95 north of Bangor is already basically empty. Pushing further into Aroostock would be overkill. Especially since it's a stub. (unlike the case across the border, where the TCH is an artery connecting the Maritimes to the ROC). That the TCH exists and has a full freeway connection to I-95 also probably lessens the need to spur I-95 northward too.

Back when Loring was an active airbase and there was more activity in general in Aroostock, then the argument for an I-95 spur up that way would probably have made more sense.

Really, Aroostock would probably have been better off historically if it had gone to Canada way back then. Instead of being a literal forgotten corner of the States, it would have been an important corridor through Canada, and probably have seen more development in general. But that ship sailed centuries ago.

[KnoxfordGuy]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

Yeah 9-11 basically killed the cross border community in eastern NB. I grew up in Richmond Corner, and in the 80s/90s, going over to Houlton was as common as going into Town (Woodstock). Houlton's Walmart was basically built because of all the NB visitors, and a run down to Bangor was as common as a run down to Moncton or Halifax (if not more common).

After 9/11 and the border tightened up, those visits died off a lot (my parents still live there). Plus, the NB retail landscape improved significantly as retail chains started noticing the Maritimes. Walmart, Tims, McDs, KFC, Pizza Hut, etc... all came to Woodstock. Costco came to Fredericton, and Moncton just became a shopping hub in general. So with tighter border restrictions, a worsening exchange rate, better highway connections in NB and better shopping options in province, all led to the crossborder shopping habit basically drying up.

Off toppic but, I went to the mall in Bangor, ME for the first time since 2009 in 2023 and oh my goodness it was a dead zone! They said they relied a lot on NB shoppers and it dried up. I remember when that was the place to go for people from Grand-Falls to Nackawic! People would make a weekend out of it. There were busses chartered to take people down and go shopping back in the 90s and 00s. It was nuts to see.

[srperrycgy]

Originally Posted by craner

Hey srperrycgy - do you have any videos of the completed Calgary Ring Road ?

I haven't produced any videos in a while now. Thanks to our winters and the gravel spread on the roads, I need a new windshield before I start filming again and you know, life things.

xlbolt's video of the complete loop is pretty darn good.

• Video Link

[ssiguy]

The Stoney Trail has more 6 lanes mileage than all BC's roads and highways combined.

[craner]

Thanks for posting xlbolt’s video srperrycgy.

[Dengler Avenue]

https://www.989xfm.ca/heatherton-are...f-highway-104/
The area in question is immediately east of the divided section around Antigonish, N.S. Local residents don’t agree with the province’s plan.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

https://www.ourcommons.ca/petitions/...etition=e-5111

A few have signed from this site (myself included) but not enough!

Let’s put pressure on the feds to start twinning the remaining 40km in Yoho Park, because after that there are still around 60KM to go in two more federal parks…

[ned]

Video showing before, during and after construction on Phase 4 of the Kicking Horse Highway Project. Quite interesting to see the different stages to gain insight on how they went about it. What an improvement.

https://youtu.be/v9JdCFZiSnQ?si=RQ8g115V14RkGrM1

[craner]

^Great project - thanks for posting.
Here is another video:

http://https://youtu.be/JTiEMmfR6YI?si=hSmM2vhgA4sIW4Wp

[Carboy15]

It is great that the Kicking Horse section of Highway 1 is finally a four lane expressway. it is a very hard and expensive project to do in the Rocky Mountains.

What angers me now is that Doug Ford is proposing a tunnel to go under Highway 401 which would have an astronomical 60 Billion price tag. Besides adding more public transit, with that price I would rather have the government put that towards twinning Highway 17 from Sault Ste Marie to Arnprior. If they can twin the highway in the rockies with even more landform constraints, then this can be done too. Not on useless projects like tunnels.

[Metro-One]

Wow! 60 billion dollars for tunneling highway 401...

Instead, imaging investing 30 billion into HSR and 30 billion into the Trans Canada...

[Carboy15]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Wow! 60 billion dollars for tunneling highway 401...

Instead, imaging investing 30 billion into HSR and 30 billion into the Trans Canada...

Yep, that's right. It probably won't solve traffic problems either.

Not to mention, Southern Ontario has lots of roads already, but public transit is lacking. And Northern Ontario needs a Highway more than Southern Ontario does. They have lots of roads (and building more) where they don't need them, and less where they do need them. Unfortunately, some may argue that it is the opposite.

[Innsertnamehere]

A lot of misconstrusion about the 401 tunnel. It is highly unlikely to be a $60 billion project.

The press release detailed the following:

Engineering services will be secured through the Ministry of Transportation, with support from Infrastructure Ontario. The feasibility work will include the following:

Examining various options to increase Highway 401 capacity, including potential routes within the existing right-of-way, number of lanes, length, and the number and design of interchanges connecting to other highways;
Refining the province’s understanding of the proposed tunnel’s economic contributions, both in the short- and long-term, as well as the project’s impact on reducing gridlock;
Reviewing best practices from similar projects in other jurisdictions;
Conducting initial soil boring testing to improve the province’s understanding of the route’s geology and its impact on design and construction;
Preparing to start the environmental assessment processes for the project; and
Conducting an initial market sounding, with feedback informing any potential procurement and commercial structuring strategies.

So a study of the 55km corridor of the 401 through Central Toronto from roughly the 407 eastwards to Pickering. Notably, the westernmost 10km of this corridor was literally just widened from 6 to 12 lanes. It doesn't need a tunnel. The study is looking at how to improve capacity across the corridor, including a potential tunnel for at least part of it. Much of the corridor may end up being widened without a tunnel at all, including the central portions.

It does not mean a 55-kilometre tunnel. I would be surprised if the tunnel ends up being half that length. And as such, will likely not cost anywhere close to $60 billion.

Also - if you drive on the 401, you know how congested it is. A $30 billion 401 tunnel through central Toronto would likely boost GDP by more than $30 billion spent on the Trans-Canada would, by a significant margin.

Ultimately we know basically 0 details about the project and even it's basic scope. The media is having a field day with a couple of sentences in a press release. Let's wait and hear some more details before passing judgement.

[harls]

How much would it cost to make the 407 free?

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by harls

How much would it cost to make the 407 free?

The last recorded sale of 407 shares was in 2019 and gave the company a $30 billion valuation. And that was 5 years ago, so much more now.

Also - contrary to popular belief, the 407 is very, very close to capacity in rush hours and traffic projections have it running pretty significantly over capacities in the timeframe the tunnel would happen. Even today during peak summer months the highway can experience minor amounts of peak-hour volume congestion on central parts of it.

Buying it back would be throwing $30 billion down a hole with 0 new infrastructure created and very little to no peak-hour additional capacity added to the network.

[hipster duck]

Putting aside this crazy "proposal" for a second, there is definitely a need for more east-west road capacity in the GTA, but a tunnel under an existing highway that just happens to be one of the busiest in the world is not the way to do it.

I think the low hanging fruit should be:

- redesign certain interchanges and do selective widenings that are clear bottlenecks. I can think of a few: the 400 to the 401, which only empties onto the collector lanes, is a major chokepoint. The infamous section between the 427 and the 409 that has no express/collector lanes could stand to be bypassed with an elevated viaduct.

- there's provincially-owned land beside the 407 that's intended for a transitway, right? Consider building a 4 lane transitway and allow trucks.

- with the rise in EVs, consider building an underground, EV car only toll tunnel that's maybe 3 lanes wide (1 lane in each direction + 1 counterflow lane). EVs don't require ventilation ($$$) and if it's for personal cars only, you can drop the clearance substantially, which means you don't have to dig out as much dirt. Enforce it by taking a picture of the license plate. Any car that doesn't start with "GV" gets slapped with a $1,000 fine, mailed to your house.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

- with the rise in EVs, consider building an underground, EV car only toll tunnel that's maybe 3 lanes wide (1 lane in each direction + 1 counterflow lane). EVs don't require ventilation ($$$) and if it's for personal cars only, you can drop the clearance substantially, which means you don't have to dig out as much dirt. Enforce it by taking a picture of the license plate. Any car that doesn't start with "GV" gets slapped with a $1,000 fine, mailed to your house.

Will probably be full of Infiniti G35s with peeling and tinted license plates. Sorta kidding.

[harls]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Enforce it by taking a picture of the license plate. Any car that doesn't start with "GV" gets slapped with a $1,000 fine, mailed to your house.

Nah. Spike strips for non EV vehicles.

Why not?

[Innsertnamehere]

the problem with an "EV Only" tunnel is that physics doesn't support fines. It needs to be physically impossible for gas-powered vehicles to enter the tunnel to work or you need to design the project to accommodate scoff-laws. You also need access for emergency and service vehicles which sort of defeats any size savings.


Good ideas presented, and if you read the press release, that is basically what the study is doing. It will examine potential capacity expansions on the corridor with the tunnel being the "last resort" solution. It very well could end up recommending some of the things you identified, and seems to hint at interchange improvements at the 400/401 and 404/401, which I know have been on MTO's radar for a while.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

A lot of misconstrusion about the 401 tunnel. It is highly unlikely to be a $60 billion project.

The press release detailed the following:



So a study of the 55km corridor of the 401 through Central Toronto from roughly the 407 eastwards to Pickering. Notably, the westernmost 10km of this corridor was literally just widened from 6 to 12 lanes. It doesn't need a tunnel. The study is looking at how to improve capacity across the corridor, including a potential tunnel for at least part of it. Much of the corridor may end up being widened without a tunnel at all, including the central portions.

It does not mean a 55-kilometre tunnel. I would be surprised if the tunnel ends up being half that length. And as such, will likely not cost anywhere close to $60 billion.

Also - if you drive on the 401, you know how congested it is. A $30 billion 401 tunnel through central Toronto would likely boost GDP by more than $30 billion spent on the Trans-Canada would, by a significant margin.

Ultimately we know basically 0 details about the project and even it's basic scope. The media is having a field day with a couple of sentences in a press release. Let's wait and hear some more details before passing judgement.

Interesting, that's very different from what the media has portrayed.