Canadian Airport Thread II

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by nname

With W pattern, then most definitely a route is going to lose 4x weekly service. And since the flights are in different time, that means maybe 2 routes are going to lose 2x weekly each.

Now to figure out which route is going to have service cut..

First, Mon/Thurs, LHR 1405 ..... 0630+1 LHR, this matches exactly AC865/866 (YUL-LHR)
Then, Wed/Sat, LHR 1240 ..... 0835+1 LHR, the closest match is AC855/856 (YYZ-LHR)

So looks like YYZ/YUL-LHR is going to lose 2x weekly each for the YOW service. And no extra LHR slot will be required.

At the end of the day, YUL was always babysitting YOW’s LHR slot. There is no need to run two daily YUL-LHR’s. So it’s only fair to drop the second daily in order to re-establish YOW-LHR.

[MountainView]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

You can’t run YVR with that. Not enough time. YYZ rotation could maybe work, but it’s too tight for comfort. A slight delay anywhere will have a rolling effect.

I should have been a bit more specific... could they retime the YVR flight to do: YVR-YOW-LHR and LHR-YOW-YVR or just have the plane sit there for 5.5 hours (which seems like a lot when they could likely turn the plane in 2-2.5 hours for an international departure.
You are certainly correct that a YYZ and back turn would be tight, especially with delays in the summer during peak times.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

It seems like AC has 20 years of moves against a new or threatened new entrant.

AF seems irrelevant to this as nobody would fly to UK on them and LHR will have very little transfer traffic.

LOL I actually have a couple of family members going to LHR via CDG on AF in a couple of weeks.

[Flemay]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

It seems like AC has 20 years of moves against a new or threatened new entrant.

AF seems irrelevant to this as nobody would fly to UK on them and LHR will have very little transfer traffic.

Double LOL .Last September we flew to Newcastle, England on AF from YOW - CDG - NCL.
(Connection time was perfect and doing it again this September)

[whatnext]

I don't think anyone posted this piece from last week on the problems Canada's smaller airports are having. Nowhere near a return to pre-pandemic numbers.

'On the brink': Airlines flee small cities, cutting key links to rest of the country
Regional air travel still sits far below 2019 levels
Christopher Reynolds · The Canadian Press · Posted: Aug 11, 2024

From his office overlooking the runway at Gander International Airport, Reg Wright can see all flights in and out of his corner of Newfoundland.

But in recent years, those plane spottings have been fewer and farther between.

"In Newfoundland, we have a saying called the fisherman's widow, which is typically anyone that keeps eyes to the sea to see that their husband will return. During the pandemic, I did spend a lot of time in the posture of looking out the window, counting numbers and wondering when recovery was coming," said Wright, who is CEO of Gander International Airport Authority.

He's still counting.

The airport has lost four routes since 2019, including a WestJet route to Halifax.

"A third of our passengers have vanished into thin air. By no means are we recovered," he said.

Gander serves as a microcosm for numerous towns and cities across the country. While Canada's total domestic passenger numbers now hover at around pre-COVID levels, air travel to smaller communities and even medium-sized cities has withered, pushing up fares and leaving parts of the country less connected.

The 30 biggest airports in Canada have seen passenger capacity return to 98 per cent of 2019 levels on average, according to the Canadian Airports Council. The next 30 are at barely 70 per cent. ...

...A random sampling tells the tale. The number of direct flights plunged 49 per cent for Sault Ste. Marie-Toronto, 41 per cent for Regina-Calgary and 100 per cent for Quebec City-Rouyn-Noranda between May 2019 and May 2024. Driving between those cities would take at least five to seven hours, with zero stops....

...Several reasons account for the drop in regional flights.

During the pandemic, carriers took the opportunity to streamline their fleet by ditching older planes in favour of newer, bigger ones. The fresher aircraft are more efficient, as are business models that operate fewer flights and carry more passengers over longer distances. More customers per trip mean wider profit margins, while fewer takeoffs mean lower fuel costs, since airplane ascents guzzle up so much fuel.

A shortage of pilots, particularly on regional carriers, and a rise in salaries also help explain the dearth of service following a drop in enrollment at flight schools during the COVID-19 pandemic....

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/airlines-flee-small-canadian-cities-1.7291608

[YOWhopeful]

Originally Posted by Flemay

Double LOL .Last September we flew to Newcastle, England on AF from YOW - CDG - NCL.
(Connection time was perfect and doing it again this September)

Did the same to Manchester in June. Air France at CDG offers great connections to most major UK cities and Ireland.

[nname]

Originally Posted by MountainView

I should have been a bit more specific... could they retime the YVR flight to do: YVR-YOW-LHR and LHR-YOW-YVR or just have the plane sit there for 5.5 hours (which seems like a lot when they could likely turn the plane in 2-2.5 hours for an international departure.
You are certainly correct that a YYZ and back turn would be tight, especially with delays in the summer during peak times.

What's the use of 2x weekly additional flight then? And what to run from YVR for the other 5x weekly? Not that the plane have other work to do at YVR, since it can only rotate with is the 6am international arrival and midnight departure bank. Essentially all it does it to move the extended layover from YOW to YVR...

Well... looking at the schedule, it does allow them to do a tail swap with AC342/345 to/from YVR, for operational reliability at least.

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

At the end of the day, YUL was always babysitting YOW’s LHR slot. There is no need to run two daily YUL-LHR’s. So it’s only fair to drop the second daily in order to re-establish YOW-LHR.

They could still lease out if there is not enough demand for the second daily, but they lease out the Western slot instead. The cut was 2x weekly each from YYZ and YUL shows that they still wish to maintain a second daily from YUL though.

[JakeLRS]

Canada Jetlines to cease ops tomorrow.

Memo sent to crew (source: airlines.net):

"Hello Crew we have some difficult news to advise that we will be making an announcement that Canada Jetlines will be ceasing operations. I know there will be many questions and concerns but the immediate issue at hand is for you to be ready to depart tomorrow. We are working on travel plans at this very time and you will be advised details as soon as we know. Further details will be shared.
Anup and Tim"


I really can’t say I’m suprised. They made terrible business decisions and were flying empty planes. If they tried to make something work from YHM, they could’ve tried to make a go for it, but instead, they tried to compete on heavily contested routes without making their prices competitive. They also had extremely poor brand awareness and an old school website.

They attempted to originally be a ULCC in 2016, but then couldn’t get funded. Enter Newleaf/Flair and Swoop and they had to shift gears to an even more competitive market.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by nname

They could still lease out if there is not enough demand for the second daily, but they lease out the Western slot instead. The cut was 2x weekly each from YYZ and YUL shows that they still wish to maintain a second daily from YUL though.

AC also have a summer seasonal slot leased out for what was once the YYT slot.

On a separate note that hardly anyone will notice but Jetlines are shutting down. Internal memo that will probably come out in the morning. Nothing is bookable on their website just days after announcing a bunch of new routes. Jetlines might hold the record for routes either not ever starting or ending after a few flights. They were a joke from the get-go.

[MonctonRad]

Canada Jet Lines:

[Calfan12]

AIR CANADA RESUMES OTTAWA – LONDON HEATHROW SERVICE IN NS25

Air Canada yesterday (14AUG24) service resumption on Ottawa – London Heathrow route, scheduled to commence on 31MAR25. Last served until 2020, the Star Alliance member will operate this route 4 times weekly, with Boeing 787-9 Dreamliner.

AC888 YOW1840 – 0630+1LHR 789 14
AC888 YOW2055 – 0835+1LHR 789 36

AC889 LHR1240 – 1520YOW 789 36
AC889 LHR1405 – 1635YOW 789 14

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/240815-acns25yowlhr

[Dominion301]

PD have extended YOW-MCO daily through summer 2025. When the winter 2024-25 announcement was made, it was excluded beyond the end of April 2025, while YYZ-FLL/MCO routes were extended at that time. Evidently the route's maturation over the summer low period is meeting expectations. Prior to PD, YOW had never had daily summer service to MCO. Pre-pandemic AC flew it year-round but only on weekends during the summer.

[qprcanada]

Originally Posted by Flemay

Double LOL .Last September we flew to Newcastle, England on AF from YOW - CDG - NCL.
(Connection time was perfect and doing it again this September)

Triple LOL, flew YOW-CDG-LTN last year and planning to do it again in November.

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

AF seems irrelevant to this as nobody would fly to UK on them and LHR will have very little transfer traffic.

As is evidenced by the numerous posts above, the first part of that statement is false. The second part is false as well. LHR T2 is a massive star alliance hub. Plenty of connection opportunities. The whole point of consolidating star alliance carriers under one roof at LHR was to encourage connections.

[Zmonkey]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

As is evidenced by the numerous posts above, the first part of that statement is false. The second part is false as well. LHR T2 is a massive star alliance hub. Plenty of connection opportunities. The whole point of consolidating star alliance carriers under one roof at LHR was to encourage connections.

Yup, surprised this is not that well known. T2 is the star alliance terminal and even Air Canada is starting a Delhi-London flight and that flight only works based on transfers from other Star members.
I will say for the big Euro hubs, Heathrow may be the worst to transit in. Its slow with security and lines taking a fair amount of time. But T2 by itself in Heathrow does more transit passengers than Ottawa does in totality.

[YOWflier]

It’s not totally false in actuality, at least where Europe is concerned (speaking about transfer pax at LHR). Just check the itineraries offered by AC to continental European cities with an Ottawa departure and try to find an example where an LHR transfer is favoured. Please post here if you find it.

It’s the old story with those AC flights to LHR (and FRA when it existed): AC has little interest in feeding you onto a partner/alliance airline when they have a nonstop to that destination from a Canadian hub. Back then if you wanted the convenience of crossing from Ottawa you had to pay a handsome premium for it and it seems they’re using a similar strategy this time around. It may have worked back then (I did it all the time) because they had the TATL market to themselves in Ottawa. The difference now is that you have AF in the picture whose purpose is also to feed a global hub, in addition to a significant O&D market. The old approach won’t work with people like me anymore as we have another, better choice.

That LHR flight will live or die on O&D to London (significant) and maybe transfers to destinations where AC doesn't fly from Canada. But on those they’ll have unallied competition that they never had in the past. AC know this which is why they want the XLR on the route. It’ll live on O&D alone.

[YOWhopeful]

Originally Posted by YOWflier

It’s not totally false in actuality, at least where Europe is concerned (speaking about transfer pax at LHR). Just check the itineraries offered by AC to continental European cities with an Ottawa departure and try to find an example where an LHR transfer is favoured. Please post here if you find it.

It’s the old story with those AC flights to LHR (and FRA when it existed): AC has little interest in feeding you onto a partner/alliance airline when they have a nonstop to that destination from a Canadian hub. Back then if you wanted the convenience of crossing from Ottawa you had to pay a handsome premium for it and it seems they’re using a similar strategy this time around. It may have worked back then (I did it all the time) because they had the TATL market to themselves in Ottawa. The difference now is that you have AF in the picture whose purpose is also to feed a global hub, in addition to a significant O&D market. The old approach won’t work with people like me anymore as we have another, better choice.

That LHR flight will live or die on O&D to London (significant) and maybe transfers to destinations where AC doesn't fly from Canada. But on those they’ll have unallied competition that they never had in the past. AC know this which is why they want the XLR on the route. It’ll live on O&D alone.

I agree completely. I have to fly to Vienna in April. From Ottawa through LHR on AC it costs $300 more than from YUL and $200 than more from YYZ and there isn’t the possibility to fly through LHR on the return flight, only through YUL or YYZ. Granted this is only one example but I do think AC888/889 is mostly aimed at O&D.
Will happily go to VIE with AF yet again.

[casper]

Originally Posted by YOWhopeful

I agree completely. I have to fly to Vienna in April. From Ottawa through LHR on AC it costs $300 more than from YUL and $200 than more from YYZ and there isn’t the possibility to fly through LHR on the return flight, only through YUL or YYZ. Granted this is only one example but I do think AC888/889 is mostly aimed at O&D.
Will happily go to VIE with AF yet again.

I am surprised Canada does not have an equivalent to the Fly America Act. Anyone flying on a trip paid for by the US government must do so on a US airline. Codeshares are also acceptable. For example an Air Canada flight is acceptable if its used under a United flight number.

I am surprised we don't have the same in Canada. That force all those government workers onto the Air Canada flight or if they must fly Air France to book the WestJet codeshare if it exists.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by casper

I am surprised Canada does not have an equivalent to the Fly America Act. Anyone flying on a trip paid for by the US government must do so on a US airline. Codeshares are also acceptable. For example an Air Canada flight is acceptable if its used under a United flight number.

I am surprised we don't have the same in Canada. That force all those government workers onto the Air Canada flight or if they must fly Air France to book the WestJet codeshare if it exists.

I hear the federal civil servants prefer the first class cabin on Emirates.

[YOWflier]

Federal civil servants must choose the most economical option, and that’s how it should be. But economy /= airfare only. There are many variables driving costs on government travel.