Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion II

[Migrant_Coconut]

Burrard to Jervis? Walkable. Burrard to Denman, or Stanley Park? Slightly less so.

All three are somehow equitable to a full-length trip from (let's say) UBC to Playland? Definitely not, and yet they all pay the same fare.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Should we make hopping on the 5 for a few blocks an attractive option? How about walk it?

If I just got off the Skytrain to head to have dinner at some restaurant on Robson and it's November and it's raining and the bus is right there, you better goddamn believe I'm taking the bus.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Devil's advocate: umbrellas are a thing. That line of argument makes more sense for Yaletown-Davie or Burrard-Denman.

[chowhou]

If I want a comfortable trip, cars are a thing too I guess?

We should want more transit users (especially on profitable routes), even if it's for trivial things. It makes existing routes more economically viable, and makes improving service through more frequent service or more routes viable.

Frankly, right now I don't even need to worry about the cost of the 5 because if I just got off the SkyTrain, it's free.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Sure, but with Jervis we're talking about "just" four blocks. How heavy is this rain, and how long do you want to wait for the bus to show up (and then crawl there - I learned that one the hard way) before you bite the bullet?

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Sure, but with Jervis we're talking about "just" four blocks. How heavy is this rain, and how long do you want to wait for the bus to show up (and then crawl there - I learned that one the hard way) before you bite the bullet?

Why does it matter? If you want to use it, you pay for it. And you don't pay much for it if you're travelling a short distance.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Which is why I suggested that Yaletown to Davie or Burrard to Denman would be better examples. Make the distance too short, and you're not taking transit at all unless it's under half a minute and free.

[idunno]

I think the fact that the #5 and 6 are so slow discourages transit use in the West End.

Something I like to remind myself of, is that in a comparable downtown as large as Vancouver's (including the West End), we would have 3-4 more Skytrain stations serving lower Georgia, Denman/Davie, Downtown South, etc. so these questions about local bus transfers wouldn't be so relevant.

The West End is extremely dense, yet unfortunately is getting shafted even in the long term transit plans. AT over 2km, Yaletown to Denman St is not considered a walkable distance, so taking the circulator bus (#5/6) is all that transit riders have. At least the Beach Ave bus is getting an upgrade!

[madog222]

Originally Posted by idunno

Something I like to remind myself of, is that in a comparable downtown as large as Vancouver's (including the West End), we would have 3-4 more Skytrain stations serving lower Georgia, Denman/Davie, Downtown South, etc. so these questions about local bus transfers wouldn't be so relevant.

Sure, but only because the rapid transit line would continue for another 10-20km past the West End in any other downtown. Proximity to the CBD does not entitle an area to rapid transit, demand does; if a bus line can supply that demand there is no reason for anything more.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Which is why I suggested that Yaletown to Davie or Burrard to Denman would be better examples. Make the distance too short, and you're not taking transit at all unless it's under half a minute and free.

In Hong Kong I could take the MTR for one stop, 800m, for 50 cents... Did I have to? No. But it's basically free at that point as far as I'm concerned.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by chowhou

But it's basically free at that point as far as I'm concerned.

I know several people who'd think otherwise.

And Burrard-Jervis isn't 800m away, it's practically six minutes on foot; by the time the 6 shows up, I'm already there. Get the Expo out to Jervis or add a BRT and you have more of an argument.

Originally Posted by madog222

Sure, but only because the rapid transit line would continue for another 10-20km past the West End in any other downtown. Proximity to the CBD does not entitle an area to rapid transit, demand does; if a bus line can supply that demand there is no reason for anything more.

Oh, there's plenty of demand for a West End/Stanley Park SkyTrain - the problem is justifying all the digging.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by madog222

....Proximity to the CBD does not entitle an area to rapid transit, demand does; if a bus line can supply that demand there is no reason for anything more.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

....Oh, there's plenty of demand for a West End/Stanley Park SkyTrain - the problem is justifying all the digging.

Yes, given the West End's long-proven heavy use of public transit, walking and biking, I'd suggest that an extension there would see heavy use from day one.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Devil's advocate: umbrellas are a thing. That line of argument makes more sense for Yaletown-Davie or Burrard-Denman.

Devil's advocate: mobility issues are a thing. Some people can't walk four blocks. Making those trips cheaper for them helps bring equity to our transportation system.

[BaddieB]

wrong bread

[whatnext]

In the Province today:

Vancouver tops list of Canadian cities facing transit funding crisis: Report
Vancouver warns of a structural deficit of $600 million by 2026, and estimated bus and light rail expansions will cost $1.2 billion extra.
The Canadian Press
Mia Rabson
Published Aug 16, 2024

OTTAWA — A new analysis warns that cities are struggling to keep their transit systems running, and Canadian public transit is heading for a downward spiral unless major new streams of operating revenue open up.

In a report published in late May, Leading Mobility Canada said the $120-billion in expansions planned for those transit systems won’t help cities that are struggling to keep the buses and trains running at current levels.

David Cooper, the principal at Leading Mobility and the study’s co-author, said the majority of transit is funded through passenger fares and property taxes, and cities have limited options for other sources of revenue.

The federal government is allocating billions to expand transit.

“It’s great we’re getting these investments, but you actually can’t materialize the benefits of these investments if the cities actually can’t afford to run it,” he said.

The analysis looked at the budgets, revenue sources and long-term plans for eight transit systems in Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Ottawa, Toronto, Montreal and Halifax.

Most of them are already reporting budget shortfalls. Vancouver warns of a structural deficit of $600 million by 2026, and estimated bus and light rail expansions will cost $1.2 billion extra.

Calgary’s shortfall was $33 million in 2023, the same year Toronto reported a $366-million gap. Montreal anticipates its budget shortfall will exceed $560 million in 2025 and grow to $700 million by 2028. Halifax expects it will be up to $22 million short in 2026 — more than 15 per cent of its total transit budget.

All of them say the planned expansions will incur operating costs well above what they can afford....

https://theprovince.com/news/vancouver-t...wcm/b018c83e-b475-4265-84fc-39efb0aa6118

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by chowhou

If I just got off the Skytrain to head to have dinner at some restaurant on Robson and it's November and it's raining and the bus is right there, you better goddamn believe I'm taking the bus.

Of course, but then you don't care what you're paying (relatively speaking, it's all public transit).

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Of course, but then you don't care what you're paying (relatively speaking, it's all public transit).

I don't, personally, but it's fairer for everyone if the cost was proportional to use.

After all, does someone living in Metrotown "care" that they pay more to take the Skytrain downtown than someone living at Joyce? Probably not, but Skytrain distance based fares are pretty inarguably the right thing to do.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

What problem are we trying to solve by switching buses from a flat fare to distance-based?

Presumably trading off bureaucracy.

If you have a bunch of distances to cover with a bus fare, someone needs to do paperwork. If you offer a flat rate, then no paperwork.

In an ideal situation you would "Tap on" and "Tap off" the bus. The initial tap deducts the full bus fare, and the "tap off" refunds the unused bus fare at the end of the day. If you get on the bus 8 times in 2 hours, then you still only pay one fare's worth, where as if you spread that over 8 hours then you pay at most a day pass's worth.

What complicates that is people who do not have the compass card, and pay by tapping on their phone or tapping their credit/debit card. In those cases, you are charged the full rate, and there is no ability to credit upon tap-off.

You also create a customer service nightmare when people do call in to whine about being overcharged, or they tapped the wrong card.

In an ideal situation there would simply be a "universal bus pass" mechanic built into the iphone's and such and regardless of what transit system you use, it's the same. Tap the phone when you enter the bus, and when you get off the bus if you forget to tap-off, the app will realize you are no longer moving with the bus's wifi beacon and signal a remote tap-off after 2 minutes.

Getting rid of cash from buses made them much safer and faster. If only we went the full way. Probably not happening now.

The transit system wants to find ways to generate new revenue, but nickel and diming people on transit probably isn't the solution. We have all the technical means to do distance based fares, but people will go back to complaining about how unfair it is when you want to go just one stop but have to pay the full fare anyway. It's a no-win situation when someone going 800m and someone going from King George to Waterfront pay the same.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by Kisai

Getting rid of cash from buses made them much safer and faster. If only we went the full way. Probably not happening now.

You can still pay with cash on the bus. You get a paper transfer, and if you're transferring to SkyTrain, SeaBus, or WCE you have to pay again.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

Devil's advocate: mobility issues are a thing. Some people can't walk four blocks. Making those trips cheaper for them helps bring equity to our transportation system.

Yeah also let's talk about that hill. Say you're on Denman having dinner, do you really wanna walk back up that hill to Burrard or Vancouver City Centre?