267 York Street - 45s and 40s (Approved)

[jammer139]

HIA report link - https://london.ca/sites/default/files/2024-05/Heritage%20Impact%20Assessment.pdf

[MolsonExport]

It is raining tall building proposals in London. Hope this one comes to fruition.

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by GreatTallNorth2

Some further imput on this project. Remember that this same company (that is proposing this) also owns CitiPlaza. It is in their own best interest to have a lot more residents close to CitiPlaza. I am sure the space in CitiPlaza is relatively cheap to rent. It was built as a high end shopping mall not cheap office space. If they got the critical mass of people downtown, they could attract better tenants and possibly that grocery store that was drawn up to go in the mall.

That's a very good point.

The bulk of these units are either 1 bed & den or 2 bedrooms which means each unit will have significantly more residents than predominately standard one bedroom buildings so 1,000 units would probably equate to about 1800 tenants. That's the population of a small town.

CitiPlaza owning the land means that they have vested interest in building as it creates more foot traffic and hence consumers for the mall itself. This would also create the impetus to CitiPlaza to put in a grocery stores where there is already a demand in the Core. This would result in Citiplaza having the draw of 3 main anchors which is highly unusual for downtown malls...........a grocery store, theatres, and the Public Library.

[Djeffery]

I wonder what the lifespan is of that parking garage on York connected to Citiplaza? Maybe they can redevelop that with a main floor grocery store, a few floors of parking above that and pick a useful number of floors of residential above that.

[Cantilever]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I wonder what the lifespan is of that parking garage on York connected to Citiplaza? Maybe they can redevelop that with a main floor grocery store, a few floors of parking above that and pick a useful number of floors of residential above that.

Looking at the renders it appears the old existing garage is where they show an additional pair of towers in the 35 - 39 floor range. I'm guessing they might tear down the garage and put those there if the first builds are successful and they see an opportunity to move ahead with more. That indeed could have a grocery store with some parking below that. They could go higher there too (50?) if they thought it made sense.

Isn't an issue with a downtown grocery store handling large deliveries. This could work if they had the receiving where the Clarence St garage entrance is.

[GreatTallNorth2]

I didn't actually realize where the location was exactly until I drove by today. It is literally at the corner of Wellington and York to the south of CitiPlaza. What a great spot for these towers.

[CanadianTalk]

City planning staff is recommending that Council approve the zoning changes that would allow for the two proposed buildings.

https://london.ca/sites/default/files/20...20-%20267%20York%20Street%20%28CC%29.pdf

This goes to the planning committee on August 13th and then to Council on August 27th.

[jammer139]

PEC endorses zoning application. Next up full council.

https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/politicians-endorse-projects-adding-new-london-homes

[rdaner]

Could construction start on this while the sewer is being expanded?

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by rdaner

Could construction start on this while the sewer is being expanded?

Probably not going to see shovels in the ground for a couple years.

[jammer139]

Agreed. It would be very surprising to see shovels on any of the proposed high rises in the downtown in the next few years given the vacancy rates and the new units about to come available. Ayerswood 195 Dundas 25s has been available for rent for a couple of months now and doesn't appear to have any tenants as of yet. Drove by recently at night and only one unit on a low floor had lights and it may have been a model suite.

If we start seeing a lot of move in promotions being offered with a couple of months free rent I expect the proposed projects will hit the pause button until the new buildings occupancy rates are at 70% or higher.

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Probably not going to see shovels in the ground for a couple years.

[GreatTallNorth2]

Originally Posted by jammer139

Agreed. It would be very surprising to see shovels on any of the proposed high rises in the downtown in the next few years given the vacancy rates and the new units about to come available. Ayerswood 195 Dundas 25s has been available for rent for a couple of months now and doesn't appear to have any tenants as of yet. Drove by recently at night and only one unit on a low floor had lights and it may have been a model suite.

If we start seeing a lot of move in promotions being offered with a couple of months free rent I expect the proposed projects will hit the pause button until the new buildings occupancy rates are at 70% or higher.

If they started this project tomorrow it would take 2-3 years for it to be complete so I'm not sure I understand your thinking. It's not like London or Ontario has stopped growing. Plus you see K/W going full steam ahead on projects. I think it has more to do with whether the companies are ready to build.

[Snark]

Originally Posted by jammer139

Ayerswood 195 Dundas 25s has been available for rent for a couple of months now and doesn't appear to have any tenants as of yet. Drove by recently at night and only one unit on a low floor had lights and it may have been a model suite.

That development is very unusual, in that there really isn't proper parking facilities for it until the next phases of that development are completed. They have essentially constructed what would typically be the last phase of a three tower development first. Also, when (if?) those next two towers (and podium indoor parking) of the development get under construction, access to the existing 25 story tower will only be off of Dundas Street (at least for portions of the construction). Not really a lot of incentive to move there right now for a lot of people, so no surprise it isn't fully occupied. The phasing of the development makes sense from a construction access perspective (off of King Street), but it results in the current less than ideal situation for potential tenants. I'm not sure it is a good barometer of the general client demand.

[Djeffery]

Ayerswood is also not a big builder. Off the top of my head, the only other thing he has built is the Reservoir Hill apartment building and that was over 10 years ago. I used to work with Tony Graat's nephew and he said his uncle wasn't exactly rich, just happened to own some property from way back (like that Reservoir Hill property he owned for more than 40 years before finally being able to build on it). Don't know their corporate structure now, but if he is still in charge, he's not a young man. He's probably leveraged heavily on Reservoir Hill to purchase the land downtown and build 195 Dundas. I wonder if they have the pockets to build the rest of that complex? Probably going to need this building fairly well full to finance the next building. Maybe they plan, or might need, to sell this to someone with deeper pockets. All speculation on my part of course.

[Cantilever]

I think it comes down to cost of capital in many cases. York didn't drop 36 million to own a nice hole on King St. As interest rates drop some of these new proposals may get going.

The owners of Citi Place want to improve the return on that property and this project is their plan do so. So I expect they would be aggressive. They also seem to have a big vision with the phase 3/4 alluded to in the proposal for the first two towers (looks from the renderings like those towers might be in the 35 - 40 floor range). Also they are out-of-towners, so maybe not of the old traditional slow-go cautious London mindset.

The King- Clarence lot is potentially prime to be sold to someone with even bigger vision. That would totally synergize with the new York - Wellington proposal and could be a perfect spot for a 50 & 60 floor pair (Kitchener has a 57 floor proposal - we gotta be higher!).

It all about long term ROI. Going tall maximizes that.

[Cantilever]

Kitchener:

https://skyscraperpage.com/diagrams/?searchID=106322585

[rdaner]

^I know that in Toronto many of the new buildings will put off move in dates until close to the start of classes at post-secondary to attract that same.

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by GreatTallNorth2

If they started this project tomorrow it would take 2-3 years for it to be complete so I'm not sure I understand your thinking. It's not like London or Ontario has stopped growing. Plus you see K/W going full steam ahead on projects. I think it has more to do with whether the companies are ready to build.

Yes London is still growing and there is high demand for housing, condos and apartments.

However, what's being built simply isn't in the price range for many so that is why we are seeing several roommates live in old, run down places where all these new developments sit idle.

The demand is there, we're just not catering to it since it isn't as profitable. As much as we all dislike the look of those bare-bones, commie-block style buildings, it's what we need right now.

[GreatTallNorth2]

Originally Posted by haljackey

Yes London is still growing and there is high demand for housing, condos and apartments.

However, what's being built simply isn't in the price range for many so that is why we are seeing several roommates live in old, run down places where all these new developments sit idle.

The demand is there, we're just not catering to it since it isn't as profitable. As much as we all dislike the look of those bare-bones, commie-block style buildings, it's what we need right now.

I agree somewhat but there have been several projects that include low income units - the Centro development the city and feds gave 130 million towards low income housing. That is a lot of money and I think similar investments would motivate other builders as well.

https://www.ontarioconstructionnews.com/10892-2/

[Djeffery]

Had to chuckle as I listened to the London Free Press podcast today. They were talking this new concept of housing that Ironstone is doing, called a "Flex Haus" (they even trademarked the name), designed to help people become homeowners. The build a house and put a completely finished rental unit in the basement, so the owner can buy this place and immediately rent out the basement to help pay the mortgage. And they talked like this is a new thing. I can't even count how many duplexes I lived in when I was a kid and I'm 55 now lol. I think they are billing it the way they are because they say it's rare for a new build subdivision where someone has the home professionally finished off with separate dwelling units up to code done by the homebuilder rather than after the fact. Perhaps, but when we built our new house on Fleming Drive (the street beside Fanshawe College that had the St Patricks Day riot 12 or 13 years ago) in 1996, many of the people had the basements finished off into student rental housing while they lived upstairs.

The houses they have listed right now are $800-870k and the rental numbers they use to show how affordable these homes are are $1500 for the basement and $2900 for the main (which also has an upstairs). I don't know, this sounds like something designed for an investor wanting a second rental property, this is still a pretty penny for someone trying to get into the market.