Downtown Update

[Chronamut]

This is what happens when you try to incorporate "woke"ness to a city - where people are like "oh no, zombies re people too.. just let them wander around, they're not hurting anyone.."

Maybe the zombies already got to them, as it does not appear the people making these decisions have any brains left..

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by Chronamut

This is what happens when you try to incorporate "woke"ness to a city - where people are like "oh no, zombies re people too.. just let them wander around, they're not hurting anyone.."

Maybe the zombies already got to them, as it does not appear the people making these decisions have any brains left..

On the one hand, it is harsh and de-humanizing to call these people zombies. On the other hand, it really does feel like a real-life version of The Walking Dead out there.

[Hamil60]

Just about everyday I walk about 2k around the dt core and even at the age of 74 and using a cane, I have never felt unsafe.

I often will engage in conversation with a "street person" and have been often surprised by their honesty and hunger to have someone even look or talk to them. I cannot judge them as it's a thin wall between them and what I could have been. Some have been very emotional only because of having a conversation, in many ways I think the general public have often acted like zombies towards them and I understand the perhaps fear but try saying good day or just looking with more than a look of disgust and you might find a real person stuck in a bad situation just hungry to be noticed.

[TheHonestMaple]

Originally Posted by Hamil60

Just about everyday I walk about 2k around the dt core and even at the age of 74 and using a cane, I have never felt unsafe.

I often will engage in conversation with a "street person" and have been often surprised by their honesty and hunger to have someone even look or talk to them. I cannot judge them as it's a thin wall between them and what I could have been. Some have been very emotional only because of having a conversation, in many ways I think the general public have often acted like zombies towards them and I understand the perhaps fear but try saying good day or just looking with more than a look of disgust and you might find a real person stuck in a bad situation just hungry to be noticed.

Although you have the best intention, this is a bad take. These people are violent, deranged and don't belong on our streets. They belong in mental health institutions and drug treatment facilities. That is actual help.

[ScreamingViking]

And yet...


Reports of harassment of homeless at Festival of Friends yield replica handgun, knife, bear spray
Police say groups of youths were ‘harassing’ encampment residents

The Hamilton Spectator
Aug. 7, 2024

https://www.thespec.com/news/hamilton-re...360d8bb-d441-55d0-b3cc-1d2af5fc906d.html

Cans of bear spray, a replica handgun and knife were among the items Hamilton police found while attending to disturbance calls during the Festival of Friends at Gage Park this past weekend.

Police say they responded to reports of “different groups of youths harassing” encampment residents, including a “brandished” firearm, during the music festival at the east-end park around 7:30 p.m. on Sunday.

Once in the area, officers stopped “many” groups of youths. They found cans of bear spray, and one teenager with a BB handgun replica and knife.

But “no complainants or witnesses were willing to provide statements or support potential charges,” police said via email.

The teen with the replica gun didn’t have a criminal record and was released to his parents at the east-end police station.

In June, a 48-year-old man was stabbed at Gage Park after he intervened in an assault and wound up in hospital.

The victim stepped in when he saw two people assaulting or harassing a homeless man the park, police said.

[Hamil60]

Interesting reply but kind of expected that. I have worked in the addiction and mental health fields as a professional and yes I do agree that more access to instituonal help is needed but beware of thinking one size fits all.

I have walked the dt core for the past 5 years and think I can recognize delusional and perhaps evan the occasional niby but again I do belive all are doing the best we can at each given moment.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by Hamil60

Just about everyday I walk about 2k around the dt core and even at the age of 74 and using a cane, I have never felt unsafe.

I often will engage in conversation with a "street person" and have been often surprised by their honesty and hunger to have someone even look or talk to them. I cannot judge them as it's a thin wall between them and what I could have been. Some have been very emotional only because of having a conversation, in many ways I think the general public have often acted like zombies towards them and I understand the perhaps fear but try saying good day or just looking with more than a look of disgust and you might find a real person stuck in a bad situation just hungry to be noticed.

Years ago I used walk along the PATH system in downtown Toronto between Union Station and where I worked. Homeless people often stood holding doors open hoping for some spare change. You'd get to recognize them, and they tended to keep to themselves.

One man in particular stood out to me. The first time I saw him he was clean and decently dressed, looked to be in good health, and was extremely polite. I always said hello and thank you to him; probably gave him a few coins but not every time. He was maybe 10 years older than I was (mid-thirties back then for me). Over time, it was clear that homeless life was taking a toll on him -- he was still very polite and gracious, but appeared to be malnourished and in a matter of months his health had probably changed for the worse. My office moved and with it my route, and I haven't seen him since, but I do wonder what happened to him and what his story was.

I never felt unsafe either, but physically I had less to worry about than the average person. I was always more wary around groups of youths, though never bothered by any of them. There was probably more danger related to road ragers upset at missing a traffic light because pesky pedestrians got in the way of their turn; I had a few close calls with inattentive/hurried drivers.

[BCTed]

The people who are zombied out are still people and they certainly are not necessarily all bad people. But it also does not mean that they are all angels.

It is a terrible sign for the zombies that they are zombies. Their health is probably cooked.Their presence does not make for a pleasant atmosphere for non-zombie pedestrians, particularly women and children, and it has to raise the possibility of unsafe encounters even if the overall level of danger remains low.

The presence of zombies is not good for the zombies. It is not good for local businesses. It is not good for local residents. It is not good for visitors. It is not good for anyone.

[Allroadsleadtoham]

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by Allroadsleadtoham

Nope, I am not Cameron Kroetsch.

[BCTed]

https://www.ontariobigcitymayors.ca/ontarios-big-city-mayors-launch-solve-the-crisis-campaign/

https://solvethecrisis.ca/

[Chronamut]

Originally Posted by BCTed

The people who are zombied out are still people and they certainly are not necessarily all bad people. But it also does not mean that they are all angels.

It is a terrible sign for the zombies that they are zombies. Their health is probably cooked.Their presence does not make for a pleasant atmosphere for non-zombie pedestrians, particularly women and children, and it has to raise the possibility of unsafe encounters even if the overall level of danger remains low.

The presence of zombies is not good for the zombies. It is not good for local businesses. It is not good for local residents. It is not good for visitors. It is not good for anyone.

They're not still people - they used to be people. Now they are zombies.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by Chronamut

They're not still people - they used to be people. Now they are zombies.

This is such an anti-human response.

They are people. Should we give everything to help them? No. They do need to help themselves.

But I think the human thing to do is show them ways they can move forward, and provide some assistance.

[TheHonestMaple]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

This is such an anti-human response.

They are people. Should we give everything to help them? No. They do need to help themselves.

But I think the human thing to do is show them ways they can move forward, and provide some assistance.

They are completely incapable of helping themselves. They want one thing, it's drugs. They will stop at nothing to get it. Compassion does not mean tents, 'safe' drugs, free meth pipes. It means tough love. Forced treatment.

[Chronamut]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

This is such an anti-human response.

They are people. Should we give everything to help them? No. They do need to help themselves.

But I think the human thing to do is show them ways they can move forward, and provide some assistance.

Everyone makes a choice in life - normal people don't go "oh? Crystal meth? Oh yeah , I am COMPLETELY UNAWARE of the damage THAT will cause me"

It's soft on issues liberal policies that have ruined our downtowns.

Normal people get depressed or maybe resort to alcohol - but it takes a special person to resort to drugs to the level that it turns them into a zombie.

It's like that futurama episode where they are eating dolphin and everyone gasps because dolphins are intelligent - but they are told this one blew all his money on instant win lottary tickets, and they're all "ohh ok" and proceed to eat it.

I don't care if it's an "anti-human" response - we're just sick of them being where they don't belong. They belong in a mental institution -they USED to be in mental institutions, until the bleeding hearts decided it was "inhumane" instead of simply improving the conditions in said mental institutions.

I always find it ironic that people will claim it's inhumane to lock people up in mental institutions but they don't blink when it comes time to put an old person in a home - IT'S EXACTLY THE SAME. It's just an old folks home for crazy people - with straightjackets and pills lol. In both situations the person is no longer capable of caring for themselves independently.

Whether you like it or not the term "zombies" has stuck because it perfectly describes them - not all homeless are zombies, but all zombies are homeless. Those who are homeless and haven't torpedoed their brains? THOSE are STILL human - but once you cross that line into "you're fucked as a human" you have been transformed into something else. I don't believe that's anti-human, I believe that is FACT.

It is the mistake that these people are still perceived as "human" that has caused us to treat them as people who can just wander around and be a danger to others and themselves, assuming they can properly care for themselves and be civil. I'm not talking about the average person just asking for cash - those are "just" homeless people and like the gentleman said above you can talk to many and understand their story - I myself have given a lot of money to people in the past - I am talking about the person staggering around shrieking and pooping in alleyways. Call me inhuman all you want - as I mentioned before I am not here for a popularity contest - I am here for architecture - and contrary to what many think I actually care about the conditions of our downtown and the appearance we have to others.

These people need to be somewhere where they are actually useful and can get the help they need, and that involves NOT being in the downtown. If you can't function like a human being, you don't deserve to be called a human being, until said time as you have recovered and have now re-entered the world of human beings.

[Hawrylyshyn]

Originally Posted by Chronamut

Everyone makes a choice in life - normal people don't go "oh? Crystal meth? Oh yeah , I am COMPLETELY UNAWARE of the damage THAT will cause me"

It's soft on issues liberal policies that have ruined our downtowns.

Normal people get depressed or maybe resort to alcohol - but it takes a special person to resort to drugs to the level that it turns them into a zombie.

It's like that futurama episode where they are eating dolphin and everyone gasps because dolphins are intelligent - but they are told this one blew all his money on instant win lottary tickets, and they're all "ohh ok" and proceed to eat it.

I don't care if it's an "anti-human" response - we're just sick of them being where they don't belong. They belong in a mental institution -they USED to be in mental institutions, until the bleeding hearts decided it was "inhumane" instead of simply improving the conditions in said mental institutions.

I always find it ironic that people will claim it's inhumane to lock people up in mental institutions but they don't blink when it comes time to put an old person in a home - IT'S EXACTLY THE SAME. It's just an old folks home for crazy people - with straightjackets and pills lol. In both situations the person is no longer capable of caring for themselves independently.

Whether you like it or not the term "zombies" has stuck because it perfectly describes them - not all homeless are zombies, but all zombies are homeless. Those who are homeless and haven't torpedoed their brains? THOSE are STILL human - but once you cross that line into "you're fucked as a human" you have been transformed into something else. I don't believe that's anti-human, I believe that is FACT.

It is the mistake that these people are still perceived as "human" that has caused us to treat them as people who can just wander around and be a danger to others and themselves, assuming they can properly care for themselves and be civil. I'm not talking about the average person just asking for cash - those are "just" homeless people and like the gentleman said above you can talk to many and understand their story - I myself have given a lot of money to people in the past - I am talking about the person staggering around shrieking and pooping in alleyways. Call me inhuman all you want - as I mentioned before I am not here for a popularity contest - I am here for architecture - and contrary to what many think I actually care about the conditions of our downtown and the appearance we have to others.

These people need to be somewhere where they are actually useful and can get the help they need, and that involves NOT being in the downtown. If you can't function like a human being, you don't deserve to be called a human being, until said time as you have recovered and have now re-entered the world of human beings.

Comparing nursing homes to mental health institutions blatantly shows your ignorance in these topics. While I agree they need more help/supports, claiming "they aren't human" and should be is pretty disgusting and elitist (you certainly would make Hitler proud with thoughts like this!). What you're asking for is the reopening of institutions where people like this (usually with underlying mental health issues) were essentially tortured. There needs to be a compromise in the middle, and we have such a facility (West 5th).

".... and contrary to what many think I actually care about the conditions of our downtown and the appearance we have to others" yup this is accurate. All you care about is appearances, and not actually helping people, human welfare, dignity, respect, etc. Everything is vanity and show for you to keep up a certain appearance. I wouldn't be surprised if one day you shared your support for eugenics.


Maybe you should start giving these "zombies" some of your magic water? Apparently it cures cancer, I'm sure it can help these folks out too!

[Allroadsleadtoham]

Originally Posted by Chronamut

Everyone makes a choice in life - normal people don't go "oh? Crystal meth? Oh yeah , I am COMPLETELY UNAWARE of the damage THAT will cause me"

It's soft on issues liberal policies that have ruined our downtowns.

Normal people get depressed or maybe resort to alcohol - but it takes a special person to resort to drugs to the level that it turns them into a zombie.

It's like that futurama episode where they are eating dolphin and everyone gasps because dolphins are intelligent - but they are told this one blew all his money on instant win lottary tickets, and they're all "ohh ok" and proceed to eat it.

I don't care if it's an "anti-human" response - we're just sick of them being where they don't belong. They belong in a mental institution -they USED to be in mental institutions, until the bleeding hearts decided it was "inhumane" instead of simply improving the conditions in said mental institutions.

I always find it ironic that people will claim it's inhumane to lock people up in mental institutions but they don't blink when it comes time to put an old person in a home - IT'S EXACTLY THE SAME. It's just an old folks home for crazy people - with straightjackets and pills lol. In both situations the person is no longer capable of caring for themselves independently.

Whether you like it or not the term "zombies" has stuck because it perfectly describes them - not all homeless are zombies, but all zombies are homeless. Those who are homeless and haven't torpedoed their brains? THOSE are STILL human - but once you cross that line into "you're fucked as a human" you have been transformed into something else. I don't believe that's anti-human, I believe that is FACT.

It is the mistake that these people are still perceived as "human" that has caused us to treat them as people who can just wander around and be a danger to others and themselves, assuming they can properly care for themselves and be civil. I'm not talking about the average person just asking for cash - those are "just" homeless people and like the gentleman said above you can talk to many and understand their story - I myself have given a lot of money to people in the past - I am talking about the person staggering around shrieking and pooping in alleyways. Call me inhuman all you want - as I mentioned before I am not here for a popularity contest - I am here for architecture - and contrary to what many think I actually care about the conditions of our downtown and the appearance we have to others.

These people need to be somewhere where they are actually useful and can get the help they need, and that involves NOT being in the downtown. If you can't function like a human being, you don't deserve to be called a human being, until said time as you have recovered and have now re-entered the world of human beings.

You’re not wrong. Major California cities are seeing a huge company exodus because of over progressive policies. Literally happening right now. To many virtuous signallers who sit back and Will point there finger at you for saying what every normal person is thinking. Thank-you for saying what normal societal contributing people are thinking.

[ScreamingViking]

Note that I didn't call YOU inhuman. I said the response you wrote was anti-human. There is a big difference between criticizing the person vs. being critical of the action.

I think alcohol has been responsible for many, many social ills, yet society has normalized its consumption and governments rely on it as a revenue stream. Most of the abuses we probably don't know about because they happen within households (e.g., violence in the home, broken families, health issues and premature deaths, wasted opportunities, money lost spent on booze, etc.). I would bet there is also drug use we don't see, because some of the people who use it are behind closed doors and able to maintain their homes. So where do we stop when it comes to committing people to treatment facilities? Or is that just reserved for the most visible ones? I'm not looking for an answer from you, just putting those questions out there because this is a very complex issue.

Originally Posted by Chronamut

Everyone makes a choice in life - normal people don't go "oh? Crystal meth? Oh yeah , I am COMPLETELY UNAWARE of the damage THAT will cause me"

It's soft on issues liberal policies that have ruined our downtowns.

Normal people get depressed or maybe resort to alcohol - but it takes a special person to resort to drugs to the level that it turns them into a zombie.

It's like that futurama episode where they are eating dolphin and everyone gasps because dolphins are intelligent - but they are told this one blew all his money on instant win lottary tickets, and they're all "ohh ok" and proceed to eat it.

I don't care if it's an "anti-human" response - we're just sick of them being where they don't belong. They belong in a mental institution -they USED to be in mental institutions, until the bleeding hearts decided it was "inhumane" instead of simply improving the conditions in said mental institutions.

I always find it ironic that people will claim it's inhumane to lock people up in mental institutions but they don't blink when it comes time to put an old person in a home - IT'S EXACTLY THE SAME. It's just an old folks home for crazy people - with straightjackets and pills lol. In both situations the person is no longer capable of caring for themselves independently.

Whether you like it or not the term "zombies" has stuck because it perfectly describes them - not all homeless are zombies, but all zombies are homeless. Those who are homeless and haven't torpedoed their brains? THOSE are STILL human - but once you cross that line into "you're fucked as a human" you have been transformed into something else. I don't believe that's anti-human, I believe that is FACT.

It is the mistake that these people are still perceived as "human" that has caused us to treat them as people who can just wander around and be a danger to others and themselves, assuming they can properly care for themselves and be civil. I'm not talking about the average person just asking for cash - those are "just" homeless people and like the gentleman said above you can talk to many and understand their story - I myself have given a lot of money to people in the past - I am talking about the person staggering around shrieking and pooping in alleyways. Call me inhuman all you want - as I mentioned before I am not here for a popularity contest - I am here for architecture - and contrary to what many think I actually care about the conditions of our downtown and the appearance we have to others.

These people need to be somewhere where they are actually useful and can get the help they need, and that involves NOT being in the downtown. If you can't function like a human being, you don't deserve to be called a human being, until said time as you have recovered and have now re-entered the world of human beings.

[Chronamut]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

Note that I didn't call YOU inhuman. I said the response you wrote was anti-human. There is a big difference between criticizing the person vs. being critical of the action.

I think alcohol has been responsible for many, many social ills, yet society has normalized its consumption and governments rely on it as a revenue stream. Most of the abuses we probably don't know about because they happen within households (e.g., violence in the home, broken families, health issues and premature deaths, wasted opportunities, money lost spent on booze, etc.). I would bet there is also drug use we don't see, because some of the people who use it are behind closed doors and able to maintain their homes. So where do we stop when it comes to committing people to treatment facilities? Or is that just reserved for the most visible ones? I'm not looking for an answer from you, just putting those questions out there because this is a very complex issue.

Correct - however Hawrylyshyn compared me to hitler and suggested like a nazi I would be all for eugenics. All because I drew a human line between those who can still function for themselves and those who have ruined their lives to the point they will never be normal again, and CAN never be normal again. Well excuse me for not thinking the same as you do. What are you gonna do, cancel me now?

It's as I said, the institutions need to be reopened, but RUN better, which is what I said. Also this is the mark of a liberal mindset to hate on someone for their opinion - the most common one is comparing people to hitler when people say things that go against their mindset. and then to try to personally attack them as a person, their livelihood looks etc- the ormus comment wasn't needed whatsoever Hawrylyshyn and just makes you appear petty. It's a cellular regeneration product and cancer happens within the cells - I am not going to argue the semantics of what things can and cannot do - but I'm 41 years old and I still look 20.. soo there is some merit to that and to its effects.

I didn't personally attack him - nor have I ever. But it IS pretty elitist to think that ones opinion is the only one that matters and that anyone who doesn't agree with them is the devil. I don't JUST care about appearances - I have suggested many policies in the past and optics is important, as is safety. This is an architecture forum, not a humanitarian forum/woke forum, so let's agree to leave personal shit out of this and just focus on the arguments of policy. Clearly we are on opposite ends of that spectrum.

back to you screaming viking,

I know you don't expect an answer from me, but personally I would treat it the same as it was in the past, where if the family expresses concern and calls them up, and the person is incapable of pulling out of their addiction, and is a danger to themselves or others, then they are put in that program, even if it's against their will.

[ScreamingViking]

Get your posters straight, it was someone else. I said nothing about Hitler.

But yeah, let's agree to leave personal shit out of it.

Originally Posted by Chronamut

Bullshit - you compared me to hitler. Fuck off with your posturing.

It's as I said, the institutions need to be reopened, but RUN better, which is what I said. Also this is the mark of a liberal mindset to hate on someone for their opinion - the most common one is comparing people to hitler when people say things that go against their mindset. and then to try to personally attack them as a person, their livelihood looks etc- the ormus comment wasn't needed whatsoever and just makes you appear petty. It's a cellular regeneration product and cancer happens within the cells - I am not going to argue the semantics of what things can and cannot do - but I'm 41 years old and I still look 20.. soo there is some merit to that.

I didn't personally attack you - nor have I ever. But it IS pretty elitist to think that your opinion is the only one that matters and that anyone who doesn't agree with you is the devil. I don't JUST care about appearances - I have suggested many policies in the past and optics is important, as is safety. Let's agree to leave personal shit out of this and just focus on the arguments of policy. Clearly we are on opposite ends of that spectrum.