Canadian Retail Thread

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

I was a proponent of The Bay right up until the pandemic. Since then it’s been getting increasingly disappointing.

The last straw for me was the $40 belt I bought in January that randomly fell apart last month. It didn’t even last six months. Between that and the condition of the downtown Vancouver store, I don’t think I’ll go back.

The Bay used to stand for quality. These days I can get better quality at Walmart. Heck, HBC’s own Zellers had better quality when it was still in operation.

This. Including the story about the belt (I also bought one for about $40 during the pandemic and it was disintegrating within 3 months). If the Bay didn't stock Polo (Ralph Lauren), I would have stopped patronizing years ago. Sad, because I was a big fan of the Bay's department store model during the late 90s and early 00s. Of course, now there are very few "departments", other than women's shoes, women's fashion, women's accessories, and a relatively small collection of mostly shopworn menswear.

HBC stores seriously need some renovations. I recall how Sears had that "time machine to 1985" feeling, when you entered the store.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

This. Including the story about the belt (I also bought one for about $40 during the pandemic and it was disintegrating within 3 months). If the Bay didn't stock Polo (Ralph Lauren), I would have stopped patronizing years ago. Sad, because I was a big fan of the Bay's department store model during the late 90s and early 00s. Of course, now there are very few "departments", other than women's shoes, women's fashion, women's accessories, and a relatively small collection of mostly shopworn menswear.

HBC stores seriously need some renovations. I recall how Sears had that "time machine to 1985" feeling, when you entered the store.

The Bay store I would assume you go to at Masonville has that time machine back to Eaton's, which that store was up until they went out of business. When the Bay took over after moving from downtown, I think the only thing they changed was closing the restaurant (you can still see the windows that had been covered over at the western entrance to the store). The rest of the store is still Eatons (probably original Eatons from the early 80's when it opened).

I walked around the other Bay store in London a few weeks ago and it had "liquidation sale" vibes on the main floor. Lots of 3/4 empty racks spread out on a large amount of floor space.

[MolsonExport]

^yeah, I mostly go to the Masonville location. The White Oaks (other London location) feels very depressing for some reason: even though it has more departments (and a Zellers!) it just feels like it is on the verge of shutting down for good.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

The Bay store I would assume you go to at Masonville has that time machine back to Eaton's, which that store was up until they went out of business. When the Bay took over after moving from downtown, I think the only thing they changed was closing the restaurant (you can still see the windows that had been covered over at the western entrance to the store). The rest of the store is still Eatons (probably original Eatons from the early 80's when it opened).

I walked around the other Bay store in London a few weeks ago and it had "liquidation sale" vibes on the main floor. Lots of 3/4 empty racks spread out on a large amount of floor space.

Yeah, the Bay Masonville store is rather small limited in product compared to other Bay stores I had been to in both the GTA and in BC. When I lived in Toronto I used to go to the Scarborough Town Centre location, that was a great store and I couldn't believe it was even the same chain as the Masonville store.

I remember shopping at Eaton's at Masonville as a kid. The current Bay store, as Djeffery points out, is virtually unchanged from when it was Eaton's. I remember when that store closed and then reopened as The Bay a few months later, they literally just slapped up new signage. The old Bay store downtown at Galleria (now the Central Library and CBC London) that Masonville replaced was a much nicer, bigger store with more selection. Another Eaton's, at Westmount, was taken over by Sears and it barely changed either. It was even less of a transition than Woolco was to Walmart in 1994.

[ericmacm]

DailyHive had an interesting article about the Jim Pattison Group purchasing 5855-5955 Steeles Avenue East in Scarborough, which was previously planned to be developed as “Lesso Mall”. The property is now proposed to be developed with a large warehouse and distribution centre instead.

The article talks about how this is a downgrade for the site from the previous mall plans, but it misses the point on what the larger implications might be - the Jim Pattison Group owns Save-On-Foods, which notably only operates in Western Canada at this time. If they are building a distribution centre, this could potentially mean that they are planning on expanding into Ontario/Eastern Canada.

[SpongeG]

^^^ Don't expect to Save-on there, its probably the most expensive grocery store here, it is nice though, good produce and meat departments but can be double the price of other stores. That would be a big move for them if they do open in Ontario.

[cslusarc]

Forbes reports: Saks Fifth Avenue’s Finances Show A Conflicting Picture

[Loco101]

I really can't see any of the current Pattison-owned grocery stores chains opening in the GTA. But I can see the company maybe looking at opening some type of specialized stores. One possibility are beer and wine stores.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by ericmacm

DailyHive had an interesting article about the Jim Pattison Group purchasing 5855-5955 Steeles Avenue East in Scarborough, which was previously planned to be developed as “Lesso Mall”. The property is now proposed to be developed with a large warehouse and distribution centre instead.

The article talks about how this is a downgrade for the site from the previous mall plans, but it misses the point on what the larger implications might be - the Jim Pattison Group owns Save-On-Foods, which notably only operates in Western Canada at this time. If they are building a distribution centre, this could potentially mean that they are planning on expanding into Ontario/Eastern Canada.

It's not necessarily linked to any other Pattison businesses. Jim Pattison Developments are building up a portfolio of investment properties, often acquiring projects that have run into financial problems. They're marketing a condo project in Vancouver for example, picked up after a court ordered sale. (It's equally possible some part of his retail empire is looking to expand eastward, as you suggest.)

[ericmacm]

Originally Posted by Changing City

It's not necessarily linked to any other Pattison businesses. Jim Pattison Developments are building up a portfolio of investment properties, often acquiring projects that have run into financial problems. They're marketing a condo project in Vancouver for example, picked up after a court ordered sale. (It's equally possible some part of his retail empire is looking to expand eastward, as you suggest.)

I agree, it could just as easily be a quick pickup for an investment property portfolio (they could probably make a lot of additional income leasing out industrial space in the GTA), but if you were a grocery chain looking to establish a presence in another part of the country, building a warehouse/distribution centre would probably be the first thing you’d do.

I guess we’ll just have to see what ends up happening.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

^^^ Don't expect to Save-on there, its probably the most expensive grocery store here, it is nice though, good produce and meat departments but can be double the price of other stores. That would be a big move for them if they do open in Ontario.

Save-on would enter a crowded field in Ontario. Metro is about the same in terms of quality and variety, but maybe a little cheaper. Farm Boy is about the same in price, but is higher in quality and has a little bit of a cult following.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Save-on would enter a crowded field in Ontario. Metro is about the same in terms of quality and variety, but maybe a little cheaper. Farm Boy is about the same in price, but is higher in quality and has a little bit of a cult following.

The only way I could see Save-on-Foods making a meaningful entry into Ontario is through an acquisition of another chain. Would they ever acquire Metro?

[ericmacm]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

The only way I could see Save-on-Foods making a meaningful entry into Ontario is through an acquisition of another chain. Would they ever acquire Metro?

Metro is a significantly larger company than Pattison Food Group/Save-On-Foods, it would not be possible for JPG to acquire them. The other way around might be possible and was being floated as a possibility a decade ago for Metro to get some Western exposure. It could easily work out like what happened with Sobeys/Safeway. However, it seems like companies have been trying to buy Pattison Food Group for a long time without success.

Pattison Food Group/Save-On-Foods has slowly been working its way east with expansions into Manitoba and Saskatchewan over the last 10 years. I think it is an opportune time now and in the near future to disrupt the non-competitive grocery sector since the feds and general public both want it to happen. I’d personally prefer a foreign grocer entering the market, but another Canadian one with national-level exposure probably would help too.

[MonctonRad]

FWIW, they are expediting expansion of one of our industrial parks in Moncton because of the pre-sale of two large lots in the new part of the development.



We kinda figure one of the lots is for a Home Depot distribution centre. I wonder if the second one could be for a second distribution centre for Save-On-Foods supplying Atlantic Canada?

No idea if this is the case, but, this lot was bought a couple of years ago, and is huge. Whatever is going there will be a significant enterprise, and, given the wait to build a new access road (including an overpass over the CNR mainline), as well as laying down services, this company would seem to be patient and looking at the long term.

[MolsonExport]

Save-on-Foods is (and its former companion, Overweitea, was) really expensive.
Like Sobeys. And of course, Roblaws (and Shoppers Dog Fart, which has become extremely expensive since being taken over by Galen et al.)

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by ericmacm

Pattison Food Group/Save-On-Foods has slowly been working its way east with expansions into Manitoba and Saskatchewan over the last 10 years. I think it is an opportune time now and in the near future to disrupt tand onlhe non-competitive grocery sector since the feds and general public both want it to happen. I’d personally prefer a foreign grocer entering the market, but another Canadian one with national-level exposure probably would help too.

Could they be thinking of rolling out Urban Fare in Ontario? I don't have any depth of knowledge of the Ontario market, but it seems like an idea that might work. There are only a handful of Whole Foods stores, as far as I can see, and just Empire's Longo stores as a chain, but they don't look too fancy, (just a bit pricey)?

[ericmacm]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

FWIW, they are expediting expansion of one of our industrial parks in Moncton because of the pre-sale of two large lots in the new part of the development.



We kinda figure one of the lots is for a Home Depot distribution centre. I wonder if the second one could be for a second distribution centre for Save-On-Foods supplying Atlantic Canada?

No idea if this is the case, but, this lot was bought a couple of years ago, and is huge. Whatever is going there will be a significant enterprise, and, given the wait to build a new access road (including an overpass over the CNR mainline), as well as laying down services, this company would seem to be patient and looking at the long term.

It would be impossible to say who would occupy these buildings. The only reason why I suggested the one in Scarborough could be for Save-On-Foods or another brand of theirs is because Jim Pattison Group is directly involved in its planning and development, which is very atypical given their presence almost exclusively being in Western Canada. If it was someone else developing it, it wouldn’t have even been noteworthy.

[cslusarc]

In Atlantic Canada, Dominion (in NL) and Atlantic Superstore are having their brands being realigned with the Real Canadian Superstore.

CBC reports: "Atlantic Superstores hoping to 'educate' customers with new branding"

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

FWIW, they are expediting expansion of one of our industrial parks in Moncton because of the pre-sale of two large lots in the new part of the development.



We kinda figure one of the lots is for a Home Depot distribution centre. I wonder if the second one could be for a second distribution centre for Save-On-Foods supplying Atlantic Canada?

No idea if this is the case, but, this lot was bought a couple of years ago, and is huge. Whatever is going there will be a significant enterprise, and, given the wait to build a new access road (including an overpass over the CNR mainline), as well as laying down services, this company would seem to be patient and looking at the long term.

What's the Amazon situation down east like? It's almost become a thing now when a new development in a warehouse type park is coming along to think if Amazon is involved. They are quite often pretty quiet about it until the building is well underway.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

What's the Amazon situation down east like? It's almost become a thing now when a new development in a warehouse type park is coming along to think if Amazon is involved. They are quite often pretty quiet about it until the building is well underway.

There is a recently built Walmart distribution centre in the Caledonia Industrial Park in Moncton. Amazon built a distribution centre in Halifax, but, AFAIK, it is not humongous, and, it might be possible a second distribution centre could be built in Moncton for NB/PEI.

Virtually all distribution centres in the Maritimes are in Moncton or Halifax. Big ones in Moncton include Walmart, Kent, Loblaw, and Matrix (SDM), There are multiple other moderate sized company specific distribution centres in the city as well.