Ottawa Macdonald-Cartier International Airport (YOW/CYOW)

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by RomanR27

Indeed, looking at a random Monday in February, currently has 90 departures scheduled.

YYZ: 16x between AC, PD and WS
YTZ: 12x between AC and PD
YHZ: 6x between PD and AC
YUL: 6x on AC
YYC: 5x between PD, WS and AC
EWR: 5x between PD and UA
YVR: 4x between PD and AC
YEG: 4x between PD and WS
YWG: 3x between PD, WS and AC
IAD: 3x on UA
ORD: 3x on UA
MCO: 3x on AC and PD
FLL: 3x on AC and PD
YQT: 2x on PD
YFB: 2x on 5T
TPA: 2x on AC and PD
YFC/YYG/YQM/BOS/LAS: 1x each on PD
YQB/DCA/PUJ: 1x on AC
CDG: 1x on AF
RSW: 1x on WS
CUN: 1x on TS

I actually see a Sunwing PUJ and CUN on Google Flights so that would get us to 92, but not sure if that's just a dummy schedule leftover from last year.

Now that WG are going to live to see another winter season, that's probably the winter 2024-25 schedule.

[harls]

Originally Posted by MountainView

tldr: it was easier for AC to return to YOW than to divert to YEG. Even with the added cost of 2.5 hours of fuel

I get the financial logic of flying back to Ottawa, but damn.. they were practically ready to descend if they were over SK.

I flew to YOW-YWG last week with 5 babies all around me. Only one of them was crying. If we had to turn around and go back near Dryden I'd bet they would all be pretty cranky.

[RomanR27]

If that's indeed the WG final schedule, here's what it is (all frequencies listed are at their peak - up to 21x weekly departures). I believe CYO ran last winter? If so, it's gone this year. Not sure how anything else compares either.

CCC - 2x weekly
HOG - 1x weekly
SNU - 2x weekly
VRA - 3x weekly
POP - 1x weekly
PUJ - 4x weekly
MBJ - 2x weekly
CUN - 5x weekly
PVR - 1x weekly

[fanofYOW]

PD’s next routes will most likely be non-US sun destinations in December. I heard it was a rumour going around.

Another rumour that seems to be gaining more traction these days is BA! Check out the “Ottawa Aviation” page on FB. I am extremely curious to see if AC will do something about this or if they will brush it off.

[Dominion301]

Today's departure count: 82

Today's cancellation count (so far): 2 - one of which is WS this evening to YYC...wonder if that has anything to do with the hailstorm?

[MountainView]

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

PD’s next routes will most likely be non-US sun destinations in December. I heard it was a rumour going around.

Another rumour that seems to be gaining more traction these days is BA! Check out the “Ottawa Aviation” page on FB. I am extremely curious to see if AC will do something about this or if they will brush it off.

That would be interesting... no doubt demand is there YOW-LHR (and intra-UK)... but the BA aircraft are premium heavy. Both of their 788s are 31-37-136 or 35-25-154 for seating.
For comparison, AC's 788s are 20-21-214 and the current AF A350 is 34-24-266 (obviously a longer plane... but less "premium" seating than BA on a smaller widebody).

AC will respond when they get their A321XLRs.

I'm still not convinced BA will come... and if they do, they'd pull the plug early if things aren't going well. I've heard even YUL isn't doing amazing for BA.

fingers crossed though!

[fanofYOW]

Originally Posted by MountainView

That would be interesting... no doubt demand is there YOW-LHR (and intra-UK)... but the BA aircraft are premium heavy. Both of their 788s are 31-37-136 or 35-25-154 for seating.
For comparison, AC's 788s are 20-21-214 and the current AF A350 is 34-24-266 (obviously a longer plane... but less "premium" seating than BA on a smaller widebody).

AC will respond when they get their A321XLRs.

I'm still not convinced BA will come... and if they do, they'd pull the plug early if things aren't going well. I've heard even YUL isn't doing amazing for BA.

fingers crossed though!

I believe it is entirely possible for a route not to work in YUL but will work in YOW. Competition plays a significant role on the viability of any air service and YOW has none. I agree, the disadvantage to BA is that premium heavy tip that you mentioned but seems like AF is doing quite well filling those 34 and 24 seats. If AC can make it work pre-pandemic with a mediocre list of options to connect in LHR, BA should do just fine with their whole network being accessible. YYC has a 789 going to LHR daily with barely any type of feed AND with competition from WS. But even with those facts I wouldn't put it past Ottawa folks to deem YOW unworthy of such service just like they did as AF announced their plans. This self-lowering ability they have is truly outstanding and quite honestly, takes talent.

AC can keep their XLRs and put them in their hubs with my blessing. My personal goal of completely phasing them (and WS) out of my travel options is nearly complete.

Did BA lower frequency to YUL? This isn't the first time I hear that BA isn't doing well in YUL but a random few days of Google flight searches in September show them as the most expensive non-stop options from there to LHR. Genuinely curious as to why YUL isn't working for them if anyone wants to chip in and let me know.

Fingers crossed for me as well!

[MountainView]

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

I believe it is entirely possible for a route not to work in YUL but will work in YOW. Competition plays a significant role on the viability of any air service and YOW has none. I agree, the disadvantage to BA is that premium heavy tip that you mentioned but seems like AF is doing quite well filling those 34 and 24 seats. If AC can make it work pre-pandemic with a mediocre list of options to connect in LHR, BA should do just fine with their whole network being accessible. YYC has a 789 going to LHR daily with barely any type of feed AND with competition from WS. But even with those facts I wouldn't put it past Ottawa folks to deem YOW unworthy of such service just like they did as AF announced their plans. This self-lowering ability they have is truly outstanding and quite honestly, takes talent.

AC can keep their XLRs and put them in their hubs with my blessing. My personal goal of completely phasing them (and WS) out of my travel options is nearly complete.

Did BA lower frequency to YUL? This isn't the first time I hear that BA isn't doing well in YUL but a random few days of Google flight searches in September show them as the most expensive non-stop options from there to LHR. Genuinely curious as to why YUL isn't working for them if anyone wants to chip in and let me know.

Fingers crossed for me as well!

I should correct myself in saying that while BA might not be doing "amazing" at YUL... they also aren't going to leave that market. There are a lot of AC loyalists at YUL, and with AC up to 2x daily to LHR, it can make the choice a bit easier. When it was 1 vs. 1... perhaps BA was doing a bit better.

I think LHR for AC is mostly O&D... yes they do sell connections, but they would be looking for mostly O&D on the route to make money.

BA has the opportunity to also sell O&D and connections... but depending where you are going, transiting through LHR can add some extra time and LHR is not cheap with their increased airport fees for transiting pax.

AF seems to be doing well to Northern Africa in my opinion (from YOW). Plus CDG is a great O&D city.

Edit: Just look at BA at YYC. They thought the market could work... and it didn't. Even with their B788. And this was pre-WestJet 787 ops to LHR and LGW.

[fanofYOW]

Originally Posted by MountainView

I should correct myself in saying that while BA might not be doing "amazing" at YUL... they also aren't going to leave that market. There are a lot of AC loyalists at YUL, and with AC up to 2x daily to LHR, it can make the choice a bit easier. When it was 1 vs. 1... perhaps BA was doing a bit better.

I think LHR for AC is mostly O&D... yes they do sell connections, but they would be looking for mostly O&D on the route to make money.

BA has the opportunity to also sell O&D and connections... but depending where you are doing, transiting through LHR can add some extra time and LHR is not cheap with their increased airport fees for transiting pax.

AF seems to be doing well to Northern Africa in my opinion (from YOW). Plus CDG is a great O&D city.

Edit: Just look at BA at YYC. They thought the market could work... and it didn't. Even with their B788. And this was pre-WestJet 787 ops to LHR and LGW.

YYC is overstretching their luck with routes for a city of that size. BA in my opinion will fair better in YOW. Time will tell though if I am right or wrong. Let's get the route first then monitor, since we are all going off of assumptions right now. Very much hoping the rumours are true.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by MountainView

That would be interesting... no doubt demand is there YOW-LHR (and intra-UK)... but the BA aircraft are premium heavy. Both of their 788s are 31-37-136 or 35-25-154 for seating.
For comparison, AC's 788s are 20-21-214 and the current AF A350 is 34-24-266 (obviously a longer plane... but less "premium" seating than BA on a smaller widebody).

AC will respond when they get their A321XLRs.

I'm still not convinced BA will come... and if they do, they'd pull the plug early if things aren't going well. I've heard even YUL isn't doing amazing for BA.

fingers crossed though!

Hard to imagine that it wouldn't be a guaranteed money maker.

[RomanR27]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

Today's departure count: 82

Today's cancellation count (so far): 2 - one of which is WS this evening to YYC...wonder if that has anything to do with the hailstorm?

WS had some frames damaged due to the hail, wouldn't be surprised if there's still some knock on effects of that.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by RomanR27

WS had some frames damaged due to the hail, wouldn't be surprised if there's still some knock on effects of that.

Looks like that was the case. WS says 10% of its fleet was damaged during the YYC hailstorm. That equates to about 16 aircraft.

https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/we...l?guccounter=1

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by MountainView

I should correct myself in saying that while BA might not be doing "amazing" at YUL... they also aren't going to leave that market. There are a lot of AC loyalists at YUL, and with AC up to 2x daily to LHR, it can make the choice a bit easier. When it was 1 vs. 1... perhaps BA was doing a bit better.

I think LHR for AC is mostly O&D... yes they do sell connections, but they would be looking for mostly O&D on the route to make money.

BA has the opportunity to also sell O&D and connections... but depending where you are going, transiting through LHR can add some extra time and LHR is not cheap with their increased airport fees for transiting pax.

AF seems to be doing well to Northern Africa in my opinion (from YOW). Plus CDG is a great O&D city.

Edit: Just look at BA at YYC. They thought the market could work... and it didn't. Even with their B788. And this was pre-WestJet 787 ops to LHR and LGW.

It may have been pre-WS ops but wasn’t it during AC’s (et al) peak TATL at YYC? They had at least 1x to LHR at that point, maybe even 2.

They have a chance at being the only player in town on that route and if I’m OMCIAA I’m giving them a 3-5 year exclusivity on it to help it entrench (ditto for AF to CDG). The richness of their cabin configs is a bit of a concern, especially because LHR is so close.

[Dominion301]

Today's departure count: 86

Today's cancellation count (so far): 0

[MountainView]

I re-ran the Porter schedule for Jan 17, 2025 (departing YOW) and Jan 20, 2025 (arriving YOW).

Note: RSW does not operate on either of these dates, but I added their flight time at the bottom. RSW (3x weekly) rotates with TPA (4x weekly). LAS is also 4x weekly but happens to operate on Friday and Monday. I did not check other city pairs to see if there are less or more frequencies on different days. Cheers.

YQT seems to be re-timed to catch the morning Florida flights. YYG seems to be an oddball.. difficult to connect to the same city pairs. O&D likely low on the route in the winter, but we will see. They don't operate to YTZ from YYG so rotating the plane through is difficult.

14:20-16:20 seems to be a busy arrival time for Porter flights, as well as departures between 08:55-09:35, 15:55-16:20, and 18:55-19:25)

Departing YOW January 17, 2025 sorted by departure time:



Arriving YOW January 20, 2025 sorted by arrival time:



RSW schedule from YOW (on days TPA does not operate):

[MountainView]

I believe someone pointed it out before (RomanR27 or Dominion301?) that the transborder area will be very busy around 16:00:

UA to EWR at 15:11 (CRJ550)
Porter to BOS at 16:00 (DH4)
Porter to FLL at 16:00 (E295)
Porter to MCO at 16:00 (E295)
Porter to EWR at 16:10 (DH4)
Porter to TPA at 16:20 [or to RSW at 16:00] (E295)
WS to RSW at 16:20 (B737) (not a daily flight)
AC to TPA at 16:35 (A319)
UA to ORD at 17:00 (E75)


I am going to wager that UA and AC will have their own dedicated gate(s) in the TB area. So if Porter, UA, or AC flight are delayed, their own aircraft will be waiting for a gate occupied by company aircraft.

The UA CRJ550 rotates IAD-YOW-EWR and EWR-YOW-IAD in case anyone was wondering why the CRJ is now on the EWR route as oppose to E70/75s

[fanofYOW]

Originally Posted by YOWflier

They have a chance at being the only player in town on that route and if I’m OMCIAA I’m giving them a 3-5 year exclusivity on it to help it entrench (ditto for AF to CDG). The richness of their cabin configs is a bit of a concern, especially because LHR is so close.

Exactly what I was thinking. Even if just for 2 years it would prevent AC from starting it, driving out BA, then cancelling the route themselves. It will give enough time to generate BA loyalty. On top of that, a 6-12 month period where as many fees waived as viably possible would help convince not just BA to take a shot, but any other foreign carrier.

Originally Posted by MountainView

I re-ran the Porter schedule for Jan 17, 2025 (departing YOW) and Jan 20, 2025 (arriving YOW).

Love these tables you put together, thanks!

[RomanR27]

Originally Posted by MountainView

I believe someone pointed it out before (RomanR27 or Dominion301?) that the transborder area will be very busy around 16:00:

UA to EWR at 15:11 (CRJ550)
Porter to BOS at 16:00 (DH4)
Porter to FLL at 16:00 (E295)
Porter to MCO at 16:00 (E295)
Porter to EWR at 16:10 (DH4)
Porter to TPA at 16:20 [or to RSW at 16:00] (E295)
WS to RSW at 16:20 (B737) (not a daily flight)
AC to TPA at 16:35 (A319)
UA to ORD at 17:00 (E75)


I am going to wager that UA and AC will have their own dedicated gate(s) in the TB area. So if Porter, UA, or AC flight are delayed, their own aircraft will be waiting for a gate occupied by company aircraft.

The UA CRJ550 rotates IAD-YOW-EWR and EWR-YOW-IAD in case anyone was wondering why the CRJ is now on the EWR route as oppose to E70/75s

Yeah that was me, it's really only a problem Monday since all the flights you have listed there operate. RSW is just Monday/Thursday and TPA on AC is Monday/Friday, so rest of week it's not as crowded. The AC TPA and WS RSW inbounds will be TB anyways, it's more Porter that will need the swing gates 11-13 as the inbounds will likely be domestic for at least two of the three Florida flights. The DH4s will likely need to be towed in too as there's no US inbounds that could turn to do those flights (unless the 11:40am arrival from EWR sits there for four+ hours).

Also always appreciate those tables, I look forward to taking a closer look later!

For YYG something like a 19:00 departure from YOW could make sense to get inbound connections from MCO and FLL, and then RON at YYG and an early morning return flight to feed the morning MCO/FLL flights. Might be too tight to be operated by the same crew both ways though and not enough ex-YYG traffic on those routes to justify it though.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by MountainView

I believe someone pointed it out before (RomanR27 or Dominion301?) that the transborder area will be very busy around 16:00:

Looks like it’ll be fine though even on peak days. Hypothetical gate assignments below:

UA to EWR at 15:11 (CRJ550) - gate 1
Porter to BOS at 16:00 (DH4) - gate 2
Porter to FLL at 16:00 (E295) - gate 12B (13)
Porter to MCO at 16:00 (E295) - gate 11
Porter to EWR at 16:10 (DH4) - gate 3
Porter to TPA at 16:20 [or to RSW at 16:00] (E295) - gate 12
WS to RSW at 16:20 (B737) (not a daily flight) - gate 3
AC to TPA at 16:35 (A319) - gate 6
UA to ORD at 17:00 (E75) - gate 1

Gate 4 with the bus to a remote stand I suppose could be used during IRROPS. Other than AF, how many international departures at this peak? Gates 16 & 17 are available for those arrivals while 14 & 16 and up can be used for international departures.

Gate assignments must be the ultimate avgeek topic lol.

[RomanR27]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

Looks like it’ll be fine though even on peak days. Hypothetical gate assignments below:

UA to EWR at 15:11 (CRJ550) - gate 1
Porter to BOS at 16:00 (DH4) - gate 2
Porter to FLL at 16:00 (E295) - gate 12B (13)
Porter to MCO at 16:00 (E295) - gate 11
Porter to EWR at 16:10 (DH4) - gate 3
Porter to TPA at 16:20 [or to RSW at 16:00] (E295) - gate 12
WS to RSW at 16:20 (B737) (not a daily flight) - gate 3
AC to TPA at 16:35 (A319) - gate 6
UA to ORD at 17:00 (E75) - gate 1

Gate 4 with the bus to a remote stand I suppose could be used during IRROPS. Other than AF, how many international departures at this peak? Gates 16 & 17 are available for those arrivals while 14 & 16 and up can be used for international departures.

Gate assignments must be the ultimate avgeek topic lol.

There's two AC flights from MCO/FLL that will arrive Mondays, one turns to TPA and the other will turn to PUJ at 16:35 that will need a swing gate (assume 14). Nothing in from TS or WG at that time though, so unless PD adds some sun flying that arrives around the same time, not an issue.

At this time the inbound CR9 from DCA is in at 14:30 and no other CR9 departure until 18:00 (YWG), but we'll see if AC ends up optimizing that a bit more.