Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion II

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by ilikeredheads

no, you'd actually lose money if you bought a month pass.

2 trips per day on 1 zone travel for 20 days is $104.
1 zone month pass is $107.3.

Month pass is only worth it if you also take transit on weekends or you get subsidized.

And if your work hours are not standard 9-5, you'd lose more money with month pass. In my previous job it was a 2 zone ticket to get to work but I get off work after 630, so there was no reason for me to get 2 zone month pass.

Bear in mind that in British Columbia the average number of work days per month is 21, not 20.

https://www.workingdays.ca/workingdays_in_year_2024-10.htm

So 2 1-zone trips per day comes out to $109.20.

In theory you could min-max to buy monthly passes on the 21/22 work day months and use stored value for the 19/20 work day months, but that's a bit much.

[dpogue]

Originally Posted by Mac Write

Would this idea work?
you just put auto load on your compass card and then
•do more trips then a day pass and only pay for the day pass
•Monthly only pay monthly if your trips are more then 20 round trips a month?

The current Compass system isn't able to support this.

I suspect that capping the daily rate at the value of a day pass will be one of the things they do when Compass is upgraded, along with distance-based fares.

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by dpogue

The current Compass system isn't able to support this.

I suspect that capping the daily rate at the value of a day pass will be one of the things they do when Compass is upgraded, along with distance-based fares.

BC Transit added that feature with the Umo app

A key feature of Umo in BC Transit is the enablement of daily fare capping. After the second trip of the day paid with Umo, riders will travel free for the remainder of the day, reflecting the BC Transit DayPASS benefit. This simplifies their fare calculation and ensures they get the best value for their travel. Other Umo benefits include the enablement of specialty fare programs for students and corporate partners who can administer and deliver benefit codes to riders for participation in programs such as UPASS and ProPASS. This eliminates the need for in-person processes, enhancing operational efficiencies and saving riders significant time.

https://futuretransport-news.com/bc-transit-introduces-modernised-fare-payment-system/

I think the Translink mobility app for car share etc was based on the upgraded Cubic app

https://www.itsinternational.com/its17/its5/its6/its8/feature/multimodal-link-vancouver

[RedArbutus]

Originally Posted by ilikeredheads

no, you'd actually lose money if you bought a month pass.

2 trips per day on 1 zone travel for 20 days is $104.
1 zone month pass is $107.3.

Month pass is only worth it if you also take transit on weekends or you get subsidized.

And if your work hours are not standard 9-5, you'd lose more money with month pass. In my previous job it was a 2 zone ticket to get to work but I get off work after 630, so there was no reason for me to get 2 zone month pass.

Wow, really?

I swear it used to offer savings, though not much, as I said above.

Who would this product even be for then now? People who work 6 days a week but not shift work outside of the weekday daytime hours, or 5 days plus a lively agenda of transiting about town on the weekends. That can't be a large group of customers.

edit: Ah as chowhou pointed out 20 days is undercounting by just a tad (5/7 * avg 30 days per month comes out to 21.48). But that just goes to show that the savings are whisper thin, I suppose.

[WarrenC12]

I think they have always been priced at around 20 days of return travel.

People without a car certainly make much more use of a pass and transit trips. Maybe the increase in other modes (car share, Uber, bike share) means that people are less likely to buy a monthly pass.

But it goes back to my original question. I would assume consumers make the economically smart decision and buy a monthly pass only when it makes financial sense. Translink seems to indicate less monthly passes = less revenue even when ridership is similar, which means people were throwing money away on passes.

[CB-Thompson]

This actually sounds like a fun optimization problem. There are several fare structures and within each month a customer's trips will have a minimum payment once you look over their history.

In that case, could the model be everyone pre-loading their normal Compass pay-as-you-go fare, but then at the end of the month their trips are optimized and account credited the difference? The biggest benefit, in my opinion, would be someone in hybrid work who also wants to make some extra trips in the month. Maximum (minus WCE) would be a 3-zone fare but the whole thing would clear up a collective headache of guessing what your activity will be for the next month.

[AlessioSBT]

The current system really needs an update.

I live 1 station from my office. It's 20 minutes walking or 5 minutes with the skytrain.
I would gladly pay maybe half the price of a monthly pass to use the skytrain but it makes no sense to pay the full amount for literally 1 station so i walk (it's better for the health anyway).

And i know several people that found alternative solutions because of similar situations. I have a friend that use the scooter but we are in Vancouver so it rains all the time and he would prefer the skytrain but like me he doesn't want to pay the full amount for 1 stop.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by RedArbutus

Who would this product even be for then now? People who work 6 days a week but not shift work outside of the weekday daytime hours, or 5 days plus a lively agenda of transiting about town on the weekends. That can't be a large group of customers.

I get the feeling you're not thinking like a transit-as-a-first-choice individual.

A monthly pass means you might hop on the bus/Skytrain at lunch to go to a restaurant you like a few stops away.
A monthly pass means you might work downtown but have a face-to-face with someone a few blocks away and as you're walking down the street the bus arrives so you hop on to speed things up.
A monthly pass means you might sometimes do some shopping on the weekend.
A monthly pass means you might take the Skytrain downtown Friday night to meet up with friends for dinner.
A monthly pass means you might take the bus to and from church on Sunday.

If you're a typical 5 days a week 9-to-5er commuter it doesn't take much to make a monthly pass worth it.

[RedArbutus]

Originally Posted by chowhou

I get the feeling you're not thinking like a transit-as-a-first-choice individual.

Perhaps not as I drive for my work commute, but I'm a huge booster of transit and micromobility options and I would also rather walk a small distance than take a bus on a whim. Some of what you listed are "nice to haves" in terms of lifestyle, not "have to haves", and I asked who this product was for in response to someone else who claimed it was cheaper to pay as you go, so I think it was a reasonable query given the information I was taking at face value at the time.

People tend to make judgement decisions based on known costs rather than unknown costs, so if I were presented with the information that a monthly pass was more expensive than paying single fares on my commute 5 days per week, even only by a few dollars, I might hesitate unless I felt really confident that my social plans on evenings and weekends would be a predictable use of my time. There's surely a non-negligible sized group there that, given that information, would go "ah it's not worth my time gaming this out, I'll just pay when I need to".

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by RedArbutus

Perhaps not as I drive for my work commute, but I'm a huge booster of transit and micromobility options and I would also rather walk a small distance than take a bus on a whim. Some of what you listed are "nice to haves" in terms of lifestyle, not "have to haves", and I asked who this product was for in response to someone else who claimed it was cheaper to pay as you go, so I think it was a reasonable query given the information I was taking at face value at the time.

People tend to make judgement decisions based on known costs rather than unknown costs, so if I were presented with the information that a monthly pass was more expensive than paying single fares on my commute 5 days per week, even only by a few dollars, I might hesitate unless I felt really confident that my social plans on evenings and weekends would be a predictable use of my time. There's surely a non-negligible sized group there that, given that information, would go "ah it's not worth my time gaming this out, I'll just pay when I need to".

The nice thing about the monthly pass is that it is ever so slightly cheaper than paying for 2 commutes every day, and then you have the flexibility to use transit however and whenever you want without thinking. People tend to prefer the convenience of not having to calculate their costs, methinks.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by chowhou

The nice thing about the monthly pass is that it is ever so slightly cheaper than paying for 2 commutes every day, and then you have the flexibility to use transit however and whenever you want without thinking. People tend to prefer the convenience of not having to calculate their costs, methinks.

But fewer people are buying passes, and more are paying as they go, so Translink are short on revenue.

So enough people have worked out that it is cheaper to not buy a pass. Maybe they work from home two days a month. Maybe they always add a vacation day to a long weekend. Maybe they don't buy a pass one month because they take a week off, and discover that these days it's incredibly easy to use the value added Compass cards, top them up online, and save a little money.

[ilikeredheads]

it's not surprising people are less likely to get a month pass because the value is simply not there. The 2 and 3 zone month passes in particular have very niche appeal.

2 zone pass = $143.50
two 2 zone trips for 20 days = 154

3 zone pass = $193.80
two 3 zone trips for 20 days = 196

On the surface the 2/3 zone month pass is cheaper but remember that zone fares only apply on weekdays before 630pm. If you get off after 6, you might as well wait until 630 to take your trip home. It's cheaper to just get a 1 zone month pass and pay the difference in your commute to work. The appeal of a 2/3 zone month pass is too narrow. It's only worth it if you work at the airport for example due to the $5 addfare.

I think the current fare system is antiquated and unfair. Get rid of the zones system. It was designed on the assumption that most jobs will be at the downtown core, but as more jobs move to other areas in the region, this system just doesn't work anymore. It makes no sense a trip from Joyce to Metrotown is more expensive than going to downtown. I know there was talk of switching to distance based fares but in order for that to happen they'll have to get rid of the 90min free transfers, which will be a PR nightmare. It's a tough dilemma.

[Migrant_Coconut]

With many distance-based systems, they knock it down to $1-2 or less per vehicle. So $0.63 on a bus, then another $0.83 on a SkyTrain, then $.59 on a second bus, and so on and so forth until you get there - it works out to roughly the same or less as a flat fare with transfers.

Of course, that would require getting the whole city adjusted to tapping out, which is another can of worms...

[cganuelas1995]

With the wider-spread use of 5G, is it time to attempt tap out on buses again?

[cganuelas1995]

Got off the train at Marine drive and there were two people sitting on top of the stairs just talking to each other taking up half the stairs

[cganuelas1995]

Just saw those same two people sitting on the same stairs

[nname]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

With many distance-based systems, they knock it down to $1-2 or less per vehicle. So $0.63 on a bus, then another $0.83 on a SkyTrain, then $.59 on a second bus, and so on and so forth until you get there - it works out to roughly the same or less as a flat fare with transfers.

Of course, that would require getting the whole city adjusted to tapping out, which is another can of worms...

Then how would they calculate fare if they force you to do a bus-to-bus transfer? Say... at Cresent beach that was used to be served directly with 351.

And if distance based, then how would they calculate fare if the bus doesn't go in straight line. Or again, if they force you to do a transfer that's somewhat out of the way, for instance, Cresent beach to Bridgeport with transfer at White Rock Centre?

So basically, you get penalized if the bus route is less direct. Then suburban routes will loosing passengers, which contradict the fact that the routes are less direct in order to try to get more passengers.

IMO, distance-based fare is probably more suitable for SkyTrain. Probably easier for bus to use a flat "base" fare and not to worry about tapping out. If transfer to SkyTrain is made, add-fare will be charged starting from x-km.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by nname

Then how would they calculate fare if they force you to do a bus-to-bus transfer? Say... at Cresent beach that was used to be served directly with 351.

And if distance based, then how would they calculate fare if the bus doesn't go in straight line. Or again, if they force you to do a transfer that's somewhat out of the way, for instance, Cresent beach to Bridgeport with transfer at White Rock Centre?

So basically, you get penalized if the bus route is less direct. Then suburban routes will loosing passengers, which contradict the fact that the routes are less direct in order to try to get more passengers.

IMO, distance-based fare is probably more suitable for SkyTrain. Probably easier for bus to use a flat "base" fare and not to worry about tapping out. If transfer to SkyTrain is made, add-fare will be charged starting from x-km.

It's not really Translink's concern if your transit route is not exactly as-the-crow-flies. You pay for the amount you use the transit system, period. If it's really a concern for suburban users, Translink can always reduce the cost of certain detours. It's not as though the suburbanites don't already receive buckets of subsidies to keep their bus lines afloat.

[madog222]

Originally Posted by nname

IMO, distance-based fare is probably more suitable for SkyTrain. Probably easier for bus to use a flat "base" fare and not to worry about tapping out. If transfer to SkyTrain is made, add-fare will be charged starting from x-km.

That is what was recommended in Translink's fare review in 2018.

https://www.translink.ca/-/media/transli...iew/tfr-final-recommendations-report.pdf

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by madog222

That is what was recommended in Translink's fare review in 2018.

https://www.translink.ca/-/media/transli...iew/tfr-final-recommendations-report.pdf

One has to wonder if the recommendation is limited by technical issues i.e. busses still do not fully support tapping out.