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  #3701  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2024, 9:39 PM
DTcrawler DTcrawler is online now
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
There are lots of places where the airport train is worth it. In most European or Asian cities (and some North American cities) I wouldn't even consider taking a cab unless I was burdened with an unusual amount of luggage. Three trains to replace a 20 minute cab ride is almost certainly in the not worth it category.

It might be worth it for the EY centre though, I can park at South Keys for free and save $10 in parking.
I know three trains seems like a big hassle but if you perform a bit of mental gymnastics and think of Line 4 as more of an "AirLink" inter-terminal type service, the comparison isn't that far off from some other major North American cities.

Say you arrive at Pearson T3, you need to take a Link train to T1 before catching UPX to Union. Since UPX only has one stop in downtown Toronto (unlike O-Train Line 1 which has multiple), if your destination isn't within walking distance of Union, you're looking at another transfer to the TTC for a total of three "legs" to your journey. Still bit of a stretch, I know, but when you add in the fact that your journey on OC Transpo is a single regular fare of $3.80 whilst in Toronto you're paying $12.35 for UPX + $3.30 if a TTC transfer is required for $15.65 total (UPX to/from TTC transfers require separate fares), the margin is further narrowed.

Another example is NYC, for which none of the three major airports have an integrated station served by the main transit networks (MTA, PATH, etc.). You need to either take an AirLink train to a nearby station, or in the case of LGA, take a bus.

My point is that if OC Transpo actually did their best to make the transfer between Lines 2 and 4 as seamless as possible, a three train solution to the airport could be manageable. I live a 6 min walk from Parliament station and my plan was to use the service regularly. However, the 2 min to 7 min change up at South Keys might be just enough to convince me otherwise. And with a plan in place to bring tens of thousands of new residents downtown over the next decade, who will all be within walking distance of the O-Train (not to mention TOD being built around Stage 2 extensions), I really hope OCT comes to their senses and fixes this nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Multi-modal View Post
The reason given to Rail Fans Canada was that to use the pocket track in the service pattern they originally plan (providing those lovely 2-minute transfers) required a lot of switch movements. It would be simpler and less wear and tear on the switches/vehicles if they didn't use the pocket track at all. So, of course, that is what they decided to do - customer experience be damned!

Now they will only use the pocket track in emergency or special situations, and the transfers will be 7 minutes...

O, and they tried to sell this to Rail Fans Canada and other media as an improvement.
Thanks for this. Do you have a link by chance? I'd love to see it...
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  #3702  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2024, 1:00 AM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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I got the impression from watching the trains that using the pocket added to the trip time making it more difficult to make the round trip to the airport and back in 24 minutes. After all, trains on Line 2 have to use switches constantly. How is this different? It would be far more embarrassing to admit to a miscalculation in travel times especially after recommending the elimination of the dedicated track for Line 4 at South Keys to save money.That dedicated track would have facilitated the short transfer time without the time required to enter and exit the pocket track
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  #3703  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2024, 3:30 AM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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Originally Posted by DTcrawler View Post
I know three trains seems like a big hassle but if you perform a bit of mental gymnastics and think of Line 4 as more of an "AirLink" inter-terminal type service, the comparison isn't that far off from some other major North American cities.

Say you arrive at Pearson T3, you need to take a Link train to T1 before catching UPX to Union. Since UPX only has one stop in downtown Toronto (unlike O-Train Line 1 which has multiple), if your destination isn't within walking distance of Union, you're looking at another transfer to the TTC for a total of three "legs" to your journey. Still bit of a stretch, I know, but when you add in the fact that your journey on OC Transpo is a single regular fare of $3.80 whilst in Toronto you're paying $12.35 for UPX + $3.30 if a TTC transfer is required for $15.65 total (UPX to/from TTC transfers require separate fares), the margin is further narrowed.

Another example is NYC, for which none of the three major airports have an integrated station served by the main transit networks (MTA, PATH, etc.). You need to either take an AirLink train to a nearby station, or in the case of LGA, take a bus.
Yeah, every city has more potential transfers once you are in the central part of the city. But Ottawa has that as well, which would be a 3rd or 4th transfer in Ottawa.

The Airlink comes every 4 minutes and takes 2 minutes. This doesn’t seem like an impediment. Frankly an Airlink type service to Leitrim would have made a lot more sense than the useless heavy rail system they choose.

NYC is not great, but, but at least with one transfer you are on the A line which hits many major destinations in central NY.

And also, in cases like New York the cab alternatives are lengthy drives. In Ottawa that is not the case at all.

The thing is, this isn’t some legacy system we are sort of stuck with. They planned this fiasco and built it from scratch.
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  #3704  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2024, 3:40 AM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
Yeah, every city has more potential transfers once you are in the central part of the city. But Ottawa has that as well, which would be a 3rd or 4th transfer in Ottawa.

The Airlink comes every 4 minutes and takes 2 minutes. This doesn’t seem like an impediment. Frankly an Airlink type service to Leitrim would have made a lot more sense than the useless heavy rail system they choose.

NYC is not great, but, but at least with one transfer you are on the A line which hits many major destinations in central NY.

The thing is, this isn’t some legacy system we are sort of stuck with. They planned this fiasco and built it from scratch.
Definitely, and as always, it comes down to cost cutting. They took many gambles to shave tens of millions off a multi-billion dollar project in the hopes that it wouldn't impact operational needs, and here we are. I think back to the Walkey overpass decision as an example of appalling short-sighted thinking.

A potential silver lining is that maybe we get Line 4 trains though-running to Bayview sooner than expected, but that'd require a lot of uproar from a mostly apathetic or captive ridership base on OC Transpo, so unlikely.
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  #3705  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2024, 4:35 AM
zzptichka zzptichka is offline
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They had every opportunity to make South Keys transfer quick and easy - with airport train arriving on a dedicated track between S and N platforms, so the passenger can simply walk 5 meters across the platform from one door into another.

But nope, they had to come up with that complicated pocket track design with lots of moving parts to save a few bucks.
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  #3706  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2024, 12:37 AM
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Final testing this evening = northbound train stopped at Brookfield waiting for southbound train to enter passing siding. Here's to stop and go service.
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  #3707  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2024, 3:41 AM
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Was surprised to see them running LINTs all the way to Bayview today. Huh.

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  #3708  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2024, 9:21 AM
kmcamp kmcamp is offline
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They've been doing that for a while, but those are running the line 2 route. Paired lints will be a regular sight there, but I doubt we'll see any singles
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  #3709  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2024, 2:09 PM
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I have seen single lint trains on Line 2 and I am sure that is workable on weekends
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  #3710  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2024, 12:36 AM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
I have seen single lint trains on Line 2 and I am sure that is workable on weekends
It's probably workable, but they don't have enough LINTs to make it sensible. That would mean on weekends you'd have 6 FlIRTs and one oddball single Lint on line 2, maybe 2. I mean they could, but there doesn't seem to be enough savings there to make it worthwhile.
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  #3711  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2024, 1:01 AM
DTcrawler DTcrawler is online now
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Originally Posted by kmcamp View Post
It's probably workable, but they don't have enough LINTs to make it sensible. That would mean on weekends you'd have 6 FlIRTs and one oddball single Lint on line 2, maybe 2. I mean they could, but there doesn't seem to be enough savings there to make it worthwhile.
It'd also be a huge PITA for passengers given Line 2 stations aren't up to Line 1 standards as far as access points and vertical circulation. Assuming a single LINT would use the "front" portion of the platform, a SB train at Walkley would require an annoyingly long walk from the station's entrance to the train's doors.

Also purely from an optics perspective, I don't think people would be very happy to have endured 4 years of shutdown for construction only to again see single LINTs running on a largely unchanged line (at least in the core section).

But you never know, anything to save a buck in this city.

Edit: re: my point about access points to Line 2 stations, I was also thinking that we're going to see the emergency exits being used somewhat regularly by folks who can't be bothered to walk the length of the platform towards the single access point at many stations. That and teens propping emergency exits open to let their friends in, which seems very tantalizing at stations like Walkley.
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  #3712  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2024, 2:59 AM
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I guess to expand on my point from the other day.

Bangkok, Toronto are massive congested cities with a reasonable airport link. After being in transit for many hours I just want the easiest connection. Those airports are also pretty far from city center, especially when you figure traffic. Ottawa is just too small for me to consider public transit to the airport given the connections available.

That being said.. with TTC line 1 being shut down just about every weekend north of St. Clair.... the last time I flew in I took the UPC to Union and then took Line 1 north to midtown only to get booted off the train at St.Clair and had to uber north to Eglinton area. I'm not taking my luggage onto crowded shuttle buses. I even asked my friend if I should take UPC or not in this instance but he forgot about the weekend subway closures which can be intermittent. Long story short... after being in transit and dealing with customs Etc, I require sanctuary. Going two and a half hours from grabbing my luggage to my friends door was not what I had in mind. Plus $30CAD.

In Bangkok for example.. after 36 hours door to door from home... I don't want to sit in a taxi for 90? minutes. High speed express train into the city and then local taxi.

Lisbon and Pragues airports are relatively close to their city centers and after a long flight I can definitely spare 20 Euros and change to get dropped off at the front door. Traffic was quite reasonable on my last two sojourns.

All that being said, in a fantasy/unlimited budget world.

If we had double tracked north of South Keys. I am imagining 12 minute service from Airport and Leitrim offset. The Airport train would goto Bayview and then back to the Airport. So from South Keys to Bayview you would have 6 minute service. I guess this would require longer platforms for line 4 but its fake money anyhow.

Doubling down on that fantasy... Imagine a 3rd center track and the Airport train only stopped at South Keys and Bayview. I have no idea how that would play out into commuting patterns and frequency for line 2.
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  #3713  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2024, 10:57 AM
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The actual truth is there will never be a single dime added to line 4 service. It's actually a minor miracle that an airport our size gets rail service at all. Being next door to Montreal means our airport will always be small for a city our size, and there's never going to be much more than local traffic, which will mostly be in their own cars. We have tourists, obviously, but the business justification for the link was always flimsy. It was mostly "because it's right there", and the city didn't want to pay for more expensive options that would have put the airport as a stop on line 2. Because we have an old abandoned railbed in the country and we *must* use it because it's there. We never do our transit planning based on "where should trains go", instead it's based on "what's close to this thing they built decades ago"
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  #3714  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2024, 7:20 PM
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Ottawa's LRT testing has a troubled past. Here's how it'll work with the Trillium Line
City, builders prepare for longer trial running period, which they say will also improve oversight

Elyse Skura · CBC News
Posted: Jul 21, 2024 4:00 AM EDT | Last Updated: July 21




https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...line-1.7269661
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  #3715  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2024, 9:27 AM
eltodesukane eltodesukane is offline
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"...sections of the Trillium Line consist of only one shared track, ..."
Yeah, and nothing was ever done about it.
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  #3716  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2024, 7:05 PM
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No airport trains running today. They appear to be attempting to perfect line 2 operations. This is not 100 percent successful. North bound trains are arriving at South Keys when southbound trains are arriving at Greensboro. This is causing about a 2 minute delay before the northbound train can depart. This is not going to be ready in September. If problems can't be resolved by October, are we looking at a 2025 launch?
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  #3717  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2024, 8:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
No airport trains running today. They appear to be attempting to perfect line 2 operations. This is not 100 percent successful. North bound trains are arriving at South Keys when southbound trains are arriving at Greensboro. This is causing about a 2 minute delay before the northbound train can depart. This is not going to be ready in September. If problems can't be resolved by October, are we looking at a 2025 launch?
Success for the trial is based on scheduled times, and thanks to the new travel planner those times for the northbound train arrivals at South Keys are:

:06 :18 :30 :42 :54

The northbound train arrives at Greenboro 3 minutes later

The southbound train has 2 minutes to get from Greenboro to South Keys according to the schedules

The southbound train arrivals for South Keys are:
:07 :19 :31 :43 :55

So, the Northbound train is scheduled to wait for a full minute for a southbound train, as there's a minute longer northbound than southbound between Greenboro and South Keys

Line 4 arrives at
:59 :11 :23 :35 :47

And departs at
:02 :14 :26 :38 :50

so it's scheduled to leave a good 4 minutes before the Southbound train arrives

Anyway, if we want to know how well the testing is going, pay attention to those clock times. They could of course change the schedule again, but this at the moment is what they will be judged by.
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  #3718  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2024, 10:18 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Thanks for the schedule details. In order to achieve the 1 minute differential between northbound and southbound South Keys departures, trains need to pass immediately north of the station. This was not being achieved yesterday at least if we hope for smooth operations.
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  #3719  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2024, 10:58 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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To illustrate the irresponsible lack of bus and traine coordination. If you are a Carleton student with night classes and live in Findlay Creek. The train picks you up at Carleton at 10:08 p.m. and arrives at Leitrim at 10:25 p.m. Guess when the last local bus departs? ..... 10:24 p.m. Today, Route 93 operates until almost midnight. Well done!!!! What is worse is that awful connection (29 minutes) repeats every hour all day.
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  #3720  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2024, 8:11 AM
TheMatth69 TheMatth69 is offline
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Went for a little spotting session. Here's the full recap !
https://youtu.be/iHKuGlM5CUk?si=Wbo5dWVlI4OZY1To
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