Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 5

[RC14]

I'm kind of with Delts on this. The decline of Portland in the last few years is well documented. It was doing great for awhile and then took a left turn a few years ago (no pun intended) and I think it's lost allot of it's "cool" factor.

Salt Lake City is clearly on an upward trajectory. Portland, at least for the time being, seems to be loosing ground.

Like Mstar said, I think Portland is "OK." I think it got overhyped during the 2010s.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by delts145

You're castigating me and calling me an embarrassment? Wow, talk about a bold faced hypocrite!!

If once in a great while and on a very rare occasion I disagree strongly about something I will take that right. We are all well aware that I am not nearly as frequent with smack as you Comrade!!

Not a hypocrite at all. You could have been reasonable in your take about Portland without going so overboard that you sound hysterical. Calling downtown Portland an apocalyptic cesspool is no way to get people to take your point seriously.

mstar's comments on Portland were far more reasonable without resorting to some wild attacks.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by RC14

I'm kind of with Delts on this. The decline of Portland in the last few years is well documented. It was doing great for awhile and then took a left turn a few years ago (no pun intended) and I think it's lost allot of it's "cool" factor.

Salt Lake City is clearly on an upward trajectory. Portland, at least for the time being, seems to be loosing ground.

Like Mstar said, I think Portland is "OK." I think it got overhyped during the 2010s.

The issue isn't whether Portland is declining. It's referring to it as an apocalyptic cesspool, when it clearly it isn't.

Look: I know we all get extremely upset when people use hyperbole to attack Salt Lake and Utah in general. I don't find it productive at all to use it to attack other cities (and really, go read comments on KSL about downtown Salt Lake and they mirror in tone the exact same toxic rhetoric and it's just as crazy there too lol).

Portland might not be the Portland of the mid-2000s but that point can be articulated without sounding unhinged lol

[Boz]

Compared to what it used to be and where it was headed, Portland has turned into shit the last few years directly related to their lunatic policies they voted for. They deserve every last bit of shit people give them.

Of course there will always be people who get offended at what is clearly obvious, and they'll be the first ones to let you know how unhinged YOU are... LMAO.

[Dale]

Didn’t watch the entire video but downtown Portland seems mostly barren.

[TheGeographer]

Policies and vibe aside I liked Portlands downtown layout when I visited years ago. I can’t speak to its current state but I feel like they’ll “clean” it up eventually. When that is who knows. Not like SLC is perfect. I’ve been down there many times and I’ve felt uncomfortable because of activities people are doing on the streets. Is it LA or Portland level of craziness? Hell no. But it could be on its way. I think the things that makes people feel safer are the wide streets in SLC so you can see “cesspool” activity from a mile away and avoid it.

I always chuckle when someone says “I wouldn’t trade … in Salt Lake for anything with another city”. Like really? There’s not one city hall or courthouse in the entire US that you don’t like more. That seems just a tad bit biased in my opinion and SLC blinders are on there. I do really like some of the architecture in SLC like the Capital, its world class. But it is disjointed by extremely wide streets, highway State street and is not consolidated in one area. It is on the hill which is cool, but imagine all the cool architecture in SLC consolidated in one area that is walkable and more connected to downtown.

As for the green space, I agree with others. We lack a river or water body, but we are right next to city creek and memory grove. Memory grove and city creek are some of the best green space any city could offer. It’s close to downtown and is a place someone can escape to from the hustle and bustle of the city. A Central Park would be great, but that’s not ever happening. We have a park larger than that and it wasn’t built by man

[airhero]

The point originally made is that Portland is much better planned with green space and plaza options in and immediately around downtown, and just in terms of general urban design. And it is. Though I think perception can go beyond reality, which we’ve seen here, Portland does have very real issues with homelessness, crime, and drug usage, more than it should when taking into account other American cities and where Portland stood 5 years ago. But the city has great bones. If Portland can bounce back a bit it has a bright urban future.

It’s hard to envision that in SLC. Having lived in downtown area, Memory Grove and Capitol Hill never felt super accessible, without a car. They are past the edge of downtown and the hills are a barrier. In downtown, even good developments still have the uninviting aspect of being surrounded by 100 foot wide corridors of asphalt. Go to Pioneer Park, people complain about the homeless there but the worst thing about the park for me is that it hardly feels like a respite like parks in other cities due to the dominating car infrastructure surrounding it. 3 of the 4 streets are very noisy and feel intimidating. Makes one feel trapped. And many SLC blocks are like that. How do we even solve that problem? Even a green corridor has the issue of having to cross a highway caliber street every 600 feet. Kinda kills the mood.

I believe it can be somewhat solved. The wide corridors and big blocks could even prove a major asset with proper planning, but it will take serious vision and investment. In the meantime, one of SLC’s biggest selling points is that it’s very car friendly, and that’s pretty sad.

[i-215]

Originally Posted by delts145

Anything Portland, especially much of downtown is an apocalyptic cesspool. Who in their right mind would want to compare Portland's trajectory with Salt Lake City? Portland is one of the last cities I would use as a positive example. To make matters worse, those remaining citizens with common sense are fleeing by the thousands.

I lived in Portland 20 years ago and visited for a week in 2022.

There's no doubt that unhoused mentally ill people are far more prevalent than they were in 2005. But that's also true for pretty much every city in the United States. Portland, like other cities, used to have slums. And troubled people lived inside them. But as the housing stock gentrified everywhere (shortage), the mentally ill and meth-heads were least equipped to compete for the limited rental space so they all landed on the street. It's social darwinism rearing its ugly head again. This problem always existed, we just see it more in a tight rental market.

Both Portland and Los Angeles have areas that feel uncomfortable to walk around due to people living on the street. The principal difference: Portland is actually nice to walk around, otherwise. Los Angeles has a few nice pockets, but it's not great overall. Big blocks, big streets, often fewer pedestrians.

Bringing this around to Salt Lake City, there's no doubt that the same problems that Portland faces, SLC faces too. But the answer isn't to cynically give up on our central cities. It's to keep working it. Nice city centers take constant work. I don't think privatizing all the public space is the answer, which seems to be the direction SLC has been creeping toward for decades (Temple Square Plaza, etc.) Private "mall" plazas DO play a big role in a city. But what Portland gets right is that the city hinges around a lot of public space.

My last defense of Portland: I lived there without a car. So, there's that.

The prognosis is that it will take decades to reverse its demise, and that reversal is highly doubtful.

So, why is the residential rental/buy market so tight?

You should know from living in LA, that West Coast cities can have a helluva lot of people move out and still be a hot market. California's biggest exports are people and businesses. And yet the state is still growing in both.

[Rileybo]

Originally Posted by delts145

Anything Portland, especially much of downtown is an apocalyptic cesspool. Who in their right mind would want to compare Portland's trajectory with Salt Lake City? Portland is one of the last cities I would use as a positive example. To make matters worse, those remaining citizens with common sense are fleeing by the thousands. The prognosis is that it will take decades to reverse its demise, and that reversal is highly doubtful.

“ Compared to what it used to be and where it was headed, Portland has turned into shit the last few years directly related to their lunatic policies they voted for. They deserve every last bit of shit people give them.

Of course there will always be people who get offended at what is clearly obvious, and they'll be the first ones to let you know how unhinged YOU are... LMAO.”




Tell me you live east of 13th without telling me you live east of 13th.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by Rileybo

“ Compared to what it used to be and where it was headed, Portland has turned into shit the last few years directly related to their lunatic policies they voted for. They deserve every last bit of shit people give them.

Of course there will always be people who get offended at what is clearly obvious, and they'll be the first ones to let you know how unhinged YOU are... LMAO.”




Tell me you live east of 13th without telling me you live east of 13th.

Wait a minute. I live East of 13th!

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by TheGeographer

I always chuckle when someone says “I wouldn’t trade … in Salt Lake for anything with another city”. Like really? There’s not one city hall or courthouse in the entire US that you don’t like more. That seems just a tad bit biased in my opinion and SLC blinders are on there. I do really like some of the architecture in SLC like the Capital, its world class. But it is disjointed by extremely wide streets, highway State street and is not consolidated in one area. It is on the hill which is cool, but imagine all the cool architecture in SLC consolidated in one area that is walkable and more connected to downtown.

Plenty of downtown I'd trade with other cities. I actually do love Portland's block size. It creates a very urban feel and encourages walkability way more than Salt Lake. But I've also been one who has never liked two things that give Salt Lake some of its major characteristics: the large blocks and wide streets. Both discourage walking and I believe it's a big reason downtown has struggled developing into an urban center (tho, credit the city working to fix it as best they can).

With that said, no I would not trade our city hall. I love the City-County Building. I think it's one of the best city halls in the country. To me, it's the most architecturally striking building in the city.

The courthouses? Yeah. There are some really cool courthouses that I'd trade for. I do kinda dig the Federal Courthouse, even though a lot of others don't like it. I think the Moss Courthouse is perfectly fine as a historic building and I am not a huge fan of the Matheson Courthouse, though it's tolerable. I would trade all three potentially but it would depend on the courthouse I guess.

[Makid]

Story from KSL regarding changes for SLC by 2034.

How downtown Salt Lake City could look radically different by 2034 Winter Olympics
https://www.ksl.com/article/51080638...inter-olympics

some highlights from the article:

Salt Lake City has already changed since it hosted the 2002 Winter Olympics and Paralympics. Its population is now about 210,000, its highest point in history and nearly 30,000 more than in 2002.

Downtown's residential transformation is already underway. The Worthington, a 31-story apartment high-rise, opened in June, and Astra Tower, the state's tallest building, is slated to open next month, among the larger projects. Downtown's population is projected to double from about 4,900 in 2022 to 10,000 in 2025, the University of Utah Kem C. Gardner Policy Institute estimated last year.

The number of people living downtown is expected to reach 14,000 by 2034, nearly triple its 2022 population, according to new Salt Lake City Downtown Alliance projections. The number of downtown workers is expected to reach 35,000, a 34% increase.

However, these could be conservative estimates.

"Frankly, it may be too modest," said Dee Brewer, executive director of the Downtown Alliance, explaining that he's aware of multiple private developers who are now considering "very ambitious" residential towers that would reshape the downtown skyline yet again.

On top of that, he told KSL.com that the University of Utah has expressed interest in building new student housing, programs and colleges downtown. Smith Entertainment Group is also eyeing residential towers within its major downtown revitalization project, and that could change the numbers.

Listed projects:

Large-scale projects that could transform downtown/surrounding area by 2034

Downtown Revitalization District: Salt Lake City and Smith Entertainment Group reached a tentative agreement earlier this month on a revitalization district plan surrounding a remodeled Delta Center for the Utah Jazz and Hockey Club. The plan still has a way to go but could include a new entertainment district east of the arena with new buildings and a plaza over 300 West that could be tunneled underground. There's a clause saying that all Smith projects supported by possible public funds must be complete by 2034. The massive project may also include a rebuilt Utah Museum of Contemporary Art and a renovated Abravanel Hall. The company says it will direct $3 billion in private funds to the project, but it can get up to $900 million in bonds too.

Gallivan Plaza: The Redevelopment Agency of Salt Lake City is currently working on a 20-year master plan that highlights future changes to the downtown plaza.

Green Loop: Salt Lake City unveiled its plans and later concept designs for a "green loop" of trails and park space surrounding downtown last year. Updates on the project are expected to pick up soon.

Main Street Promenade: Salt Lake City unveiled concept designs earlier this year on how it could turn Main Street into a walkable promenade with various districts on each block from 400 South to South Temple. It's estimated to cost $125 million.

Pioneer Park: Salt Lake City has a plan to revamp the downtown park. The city directed $3.4 million in impact fee funds in 2019 and $10 million from a sales tax bond in 2022 toward the project. It's unclear when construction will begin.

Rio Grande District: Redevelopment Agency of Salt Lake City's plan to transform 11 acres near the Rio Grande Depot, anchored by USA Climbing's proposed new headquarters. The project would essentially extend the downtown footprint westward.

Rio Grande Plan: A resident-led plan — with city interest — that would bury the rails that run just west of downtown through a train box. UTA's FrontRunner would potentially use the Rio Grande Depot as a station. Salt Lake City published a screening analysis late last year, estimating that it could cost $3-5 billion to carry out.

TechLink: Utah Transit Authority wants to move forward with its proposed light-rail extension that would link the University of Utah's Research Park to the Salt Lake City International Airport via a new line deeper into the core of downtown Salt Lake City. UTA director Jay Fox told KSL.com earlier this month that he'd like to see the new orange TRAX line complete by 2034.

The 210,000 population doesn't account for any projects completed this summer or currently under construction. This includes Worthington and Astra. The projected Downtown population only accounts for residential projects already under construction. This is why Dee Brewer says the numbers are too modest. I do think it is very possible we may see SLC top 225,000 and downtown top 25,000 with the 2030 census based on only the current rate of development.

Additionally, the projects that Dee Brewer teases do not include the SEG entertainment district as they are called out later.

The public project list would go a long way to helping the City. I would also love to see the Downtown Streetcar line added to the list but I would also be happy if we can complete all of the listed projects.

I am hopeful that we will hear about some projects moving forward before the end of the year. If we see interest rates dropped in September, as many are speculating, we could see a rush of projects move forward.

I feel that the next few years will be exciting from a development standpoint as the City is ready to boom like it hasn't before.

[i-215]

Originally Posted by Makid

The 210,000 population doesn't account for any projects completed this summer or currently under construction. This includes Worthington and Astra. The projected Downtown population only accounts for residential projects already under construction. This is why Dee Brewer says the numbers are too modest. I do think it is very possible we may see SLC top 225,000 and downtown top 25,000 with the 2030 census based on only the current rate of development.

Maybe I'm crazy to ask... but could SLC push 300,000 by then? Let's say the condo craze continues.

[Makid]

Originally Posted by i-215

Maybe I'm crazy to ask... but could SLC push 300,000 by then? Let's say the condo craze continues.

By the current estimates, SLC has only added roughly 10,000 people since the 2020 census. I can see maybe another 15,000 to 20,000 but I don't think we will see an increase of 90,000 from the current estimates in the next 5.5 years.

[bob rulz]

Wow I missed a lot of discussion this week.

I think one overlooked factor in why it's been so difficult for us to get additional height is our huge blocks that encourage building wide instead of tall. Salt Lake City is currently proposing changes to their design review process - one of those proposed changes is to cap the maximum width of apartment buildings at 200 feet, no exceptions. I hope this provision stays. Imagine if all of those apartment buildings on 400 South were half as wide and twice as tall!

Originally Posted by i-215

Maybe I'm crazy to ask... but could SLC push 300,000 by then? Let's say the condo craze continues.

I think 225,000 is within reach, maaaaaybe 230,000. I'd be hard-pressed to see higher than that. In an absolute best case scenario, maybe we could reach 300,000 by 2040. But that's absolute best case, like, a constant frenzy of construction that radically reshapes the city in the next 15 years, coupled with significant loosening of density and height restrictions throughout the city.

Originally Posted by Comrade

The fact you were around then should tell you why it's different.

But here's why:

1. Salt Lake was long expected as being a lock for these games as there was no legitimate competition. It was pretty much an open secret the city was going to be given the bid.

2. Salt Lake had never hosted the Olympic Games before when they won the 2002 Olympics. Ever.

3. Salt Lake had put in previous bids prior to their successful 2002 bid.

4. In 1991, Salt Lake bid to host the 1998 Winter Olympics, held a massive party downtown and was seen as the favorite to win - but Nagano won in a surprise bid. Three years later, they were again seen as the favorite and coupled with losing previously, the win, while expected, was still a massive development since, you know, they finally got it after multiple tries.

I think there's 2 other important things that are missed:

1) The Olympics in general have become far more controversial since even the 1990s (when they were obviously already controversial). I think younger generations especially just aren't that excited about hosting the Olympics because of general prevailing political and social attitudes and the controversies that seem to surround nearly every Olympics and the negative effects they have on the cities hosting them. I think Salt Lake City is unique in the sense that we executed a very successful Olympics that brought a lot of positive change and didn't really lead to obvious lasting negative effects on the city, and since nearly every venue has stayed in continuous use and will be re-used for the 2034 Olympics, the public investment will be significantly less. However, not everybody sees it this way, especially not younger generations that were too young to remember the Olympics.

2) The way that news is disseminated is just so drastically different now than it was then with social media and the decline of traditional media. Why would I want to go out in the middle of the night downtown to attend this event "in person" when I could just read about it the next day?

[bob rulz]

Originally Posted by TheGeographer

Found this map interesting (link below). Sorry I couldn’t upload it, it’s a Reddit post and I couldn’t take a decent screen shot of it.

The map in the link provided shows high rise construction (10 stories or more) in 2024. Found it interesting to see where cities are actively building high rises. I would have expected more high rises going up in the Western cities. Texas is going crazy along with Atlanta, Miami, NYC, and the Canadian cities.

https://www.reddit.com/r/skyscrapers...nder/#lightbox

I agree that this looks sad for Salt Lake City, but I do think there's some important context missing. Mostly the fact that while only 2 are under construction, 1 is a new tallest and the other is in our top 10 tallest. A city that has 2 10-story buildings under construction would look the same on this map but that would obviously be significantly less impactful/notable.

Genuine question: how many of these will be new tallests?

[Tippy]

Multiple commenters on the r/developmentslc subreddit said that a big factor in the lack of high rises getting here is the soil, that it’s ancient lake bed and there’s the risk of liquefaction. Another mentioned you have to dig very deep to reach the suitable ground layer which increases the cost to build by a lot.

Does anyone have more knowledge on this? I know places such as SF also have areas with high liquefaction risk, and there’s cases like the millennium tower.

[Tippy]

Originally Posted by bob rulz

I agree that this looks sad for Salt Lake City, but I do think there's some important context missing. Mostly the fact that while only 2 are under construction, 1 is a new tallest and the other is in our top 10 tallest. A city that has 2 10-story buildings under construction would look the same on this map but that would obviously be significantly less impactful/notable.

Genuine question: how many of these will be new tallests?

Is the Worthington or Astra considered complete yet? I live at the Worthington and it definitely feels under construction still.

The Brix is 11 stories I wonder if that’s one of the 2 being counted, to me it seems like there’s 3 buildings over 10 stories under construction at the moment.

[locolife]

Originally Posted by i-215

Maybe I'm crazy to ask... but could SLC push 300,000 by then? Let's say the condo craze continues.

Question, how condos factor into single-family home inventory KPIs like this but it does seem the home inventory available is shifting to an over supply, which usually means less new housing starts. Is there similar supply/demand data on condos/apartments?

Interest rates being high isn't great for any new major projects to get going. That alone could cause new condo starts to slow, if the oversupply of "housing units" generally becomes a big national issue, that could be another contributing factor that hurts all new unit building. But if I knew the future I'd already be a really rich so who knows what it will do.

"In the Census May 2024 newly built home sales data, the current months’ supply of inventory is 9.3. Some analysts have noted that, given the five- to six-month benchmark, that this means the building market for single-family homes is possibly oversupplied, implying declines for construction and prices lie ahead."

https://www.nahb.org/blog/2024/07/hi...ales-inventory

[locolife]

Originally Posted by bob rulz

I agree that this looks sad for Salt Lake City, but I do think there's some important context missing. Mostly the fact that while only 2 are under construction, 1 is a new tallest and the other is in our top 10 tallest. A city that has 2 10-story buildings under construction would look the same on this map but that would obviously be significantly less impactful/notable.

Genuine question: how many of these will be new tallests?

I'm not sure but Boise probably fits what you're saying, I'm guessing those 4 buildings are less impactful than the 2 in SLC.

But I think most bigger cities, like PHX and San Diego (two I'm more familiar with) are not mainly building 10 story buildings.