Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

That would be a bit extreme no?

Even in officially atheist China, Beijing tolerates Catholic and Anglican schools in its two SARs, Hong Kong and Macau. Despite these schools being relics of China's century of humiliation and western colonial subjugation, these schools can still keep their saint names and crosses as cultural heritage.

Yeah. Everyone thinks communist totalitarian erasure and revisionism of the historic culture and beliefs is abhorrent, except for some reason in the case of Quebec when it comes to this issue!

As I've mentioned before, the real test is whether Quebec is putting up new Catholic imagery today and still naming stuff for saints. Obviously it isn't and hasn't been for decades.

In fact, a lot of religious names do get replaced in Quebec. For example when municipalities merge often the saint name gets dumped, or schools often ditch the religious name when there is a new building or new role for it. So an École Sainte-Marie becomes the École des Petits-Copains. But of course there is a lot of religious stuff out there to begin with, so people don't always notice that things are slowly changing.

Not that the anti-21 crowd really cares anyway. For many of them diversity is the new religion, and one must yield to it at all costs, even the negatives.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Haitans have a lot of hostility and speak perfect French.

That's new to me! You mean the Hatian upper class? Only 5% of the population.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

That's new to me! You mean the Hatian upper class? Only 5% of the population.

Perhaps, but there has never been a problem with Haitians moving to Quebec and using French.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

That's new to me! You mean the Hatian upper class? Only 5% of the population.

I don't know who the immigrants are in Canada but they often speak excellent French are often French teachers even. In any event they are French over English speakers which is what matters here. I guess in France you look down on their funny accents.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by harls

'While “excuse me” might be an acceptable way to get someone’s attention in the US, in France it would be considered overly abrupt and rude.'

Canadians find that kind of rude too, tbh.

Canadians in general find it rude to address someone with an initial "excuse me?" I don't think so.

Now, what is rude is to respond to a "how may I help you?" simply with a "gimme a large double double and a glazed donut".

In French it sounds even more horrible and rude:

"Bonjour, comment puis-je vous aider?"

"Tu vas me donner un gros café régulier avec un timatin saucisse sur muffin anglais".

Thankfully it's rare. I hope.

[New Brisavoine]

In the French Twitter today, two tweets with lots of views that may interest this thread.

First, some are commemorating "that" speech, including the former French ambassador in Washington DC (a Leftist pro-Biden/Obama/Clinton with a 2nd home in Manhattan, not at all your right-wing nationalist) who has retweeted it:



Then, there is a controversy emerging surrounding Céline Dion (but I don't know whether the information is accurate or not... some say she wouldn't be paid, so who knows... if she's indeed paid that sum, her popularity in France will decline, because French people don't like financial greed, money is still seen as unclean here):



Unfavorably compared already:

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I don't know who the immigrants are in Canada but they often speak excellent French are often French teachers even. In any event they are French over English speakers which is what matters here. I guess in France you look down on their funny accents.

Most Haitians struggle with French. It's not a question of accent. The language spoken by 99% of the population is Haitian Creole, which is as different from French as Dutch is different from German. Only the upper bourgeoisie master proper French. The rest of the population would learn French at school... if they went to school and if there was a school system to speak of.

The Haitian upper bourgeoisie goes to France, or big US cities. I doubt they migrate to Canada. Canada is more for those who have less opportunities and less financial means. So that would be overwhelmingly the part of the population who don't master French, or don't speak it all that well.

Of course I suppose they can learn French quickly in Québec, because Haitian Creole is based on French, but to say that they speak "perfect French"... Once in California at a Safeway supermarket I found out the guy selling fish in the supermarket was Haitian, a 20 something guy. I tried to speak French with him, but it was a difficult conversation. He was struggling with French really.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Then, there is a controversy emerging surrounding Céline Dion (but I don't know whether the information is accurate or not... some say she wouldn't be paid, so who knows... if she's indeed paid that sum, her popularity in France will decline, because French people don't like financial greed, money is still seen as unclean here):

Probably the bigger scandal is why there are so many foreign artists being hired to perform at the opening ceremony lol. I couldn't imagine this happening in Vancouver's 2010 opening ceremony, or if Montréal or Toronto hosted the summer games. I doubt the organizers of Montréal's JO would hire Mylène Farmer (though she is born in Québec) over homegrown talent or naturalized Québécois like Lara Fabian.

Even more confusing is getting Snoop Dog to carry the final leg of the torch to Seine Saint-Denis. I guess he has more cachet in France?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Most Haitians struggle with French. It's not a question of accent. The language spoken by 99% of the population is Haitian Creole, which is as different from French as Dutch is different from German. Only the upper bourgeoisie master proper French. The rest of the population would learn French at school... if they went to school and if there was a school system to speak of.

The Haitian upper bourgeoisie goes to France, or big US cities. I doubt they migrate to Canada. Canada is more for those who have less opportunities and less financial means. So that would be overwhelmingly the part of the population who don't master French, or don't speak it all that well.

Of course I suppose they can learn French quickly in Québec, because Haitian Creole is based on French, but to say that they speak "perfect French"... Once in California at a Safeway supermarket I found out the guy selling fish in the supermarket was Haitian, a 20 something guy. I tried to speak French with him, but it was a difficult conversation. He was struggling with French really.

Author Dany Laferrière and former Governor General of Canada and Francophonie head Michaëlle Jean are from Haiti's upper class. Though they ended up in Canada as a result of a migration from a couple of decades ago.

If indeed the Haitians we are getting these days are from the lower classes, I still haven't noticed any communication problems with them in French.

[Acajack]

That said, I do find communicating with Haitians in the US is hit and miss. Some are good in French whereas others speak more pure Kwéyol. Unlike here obviously there is a lot more pressure from English, so they tend to retain Kwéyol as a main language more and there is little to incite them to gravitate more towards French. I think that for those who move to Quebec, their Kwéyol becomes more and more infused with French over time due to the local language environment.

I've also noticed that with other people who move away from their home language zone.

People from France who move to Toronto retain the French of France more intactly than those who move to Quebec.

Also, Acadien people I know who have moved to Anglo-Canada have more pure Acadien accents and speech than those who move to Quebec.

That's because your language stays static as if you'd never left home if you move to an area where you never use it.

Whereas if you're in an area where another variant of it is spoken, it rubs off on your native language by osmosis.

[kool maudit]

I don't really understand the idea that language is not that important. I mean, people are people but having learned two languages in my adult life in order to live in their cities, as well as pretty decent workaday chunks of two others, it still seems pretty big.

Not big in the sense of insurmountable, but big in a human sense of interesting and pervasive. English and French have very different histories, England and France are very different, they have different literatures and temperaments. They are far more different than English and Swedish in some ways (and these are still quite different).

I can't think about Montreal and Toronto and just collapse that category. It feels like classifying meals by calorie count or something.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by lio45

Not really a high bar to surpass, given the ROC has borne the most of JT’s pet Scheme of Wage Depression. I’d be curious, how do we compare to other developed countries? (If we’re actually close to leading the pack, I may consider being okay with that aspect of the CAQ’s job so far.)

I assume the ongoing labour shortages have helped push wages.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Probably the bigger scandal is why there are so many foreign artists being hired to perform at the opening ceremony lol. I couldn't imagine this happening in Vancouver's 2010 opening ceremony, or if Montreal or Toronto hosted the summer games.

Even more confusing is getting Snoop Dog to carry the final leg of the torch to Seine Saint-Denis. I guess he has more cachet in France?

Typical French left-wing elites. They believe that you have to hide all national elements from such ceremonies, and make something "global" and "cosmopolitan" to appear more open-minded, inclusive, open to the world, etc. Very Canadian I suppose?

They had already done the same for the bicentennial of the French Revolution in 1989. The parade at night on the Champs-Elysées baffled 'old France' commentators, because it contained no references whatsoever to France or French history, but was more some strange "world parade", with Black dancers from Benin, Soviet military men parading in Cheka uniforms from the Russian Civil War (to allude to the "revolution" I suppose), British double-decker buses, and other bands and floats from countries all around the world, with an over-representation of Black ones (either African, or Black Americans, such as an entire company of Black majorettes from the US deep south... the French Left has always had an attraction for Black Americans).

The singer who sang the Marseillaise (which was really the only reference to France during the entire ceremony) was herself... a Black American opera singer, Jessye Norman (despite the fact France is not lacking in opera singers). Her performance was brilliant though, so it wasn't a bad choice in retrospect.

• Video Link

So you should expect pretty much the same for the opening ceremony of these Paris Olympic games. Almost no reference to France, more of a "world ceremony", with lots of Black and Black American artists. Among the 4 people in charge of the ceremony, they've hired a French historian who is a militant of "world history", who believes national history shouldn't be taught anymore, French history doesn't exist as such, all the things that happened in France are just part of world history, bla bla bla. This has been criticized in right-wing French media in recent weeks, but this is typical of Macron who believes speaking English and being "inclusive" of all world culture is the way to be modern and open-minded. That French historian has said that the opening ceremony in Beijing in 2008, with its emphasis on Chinese history and Chinese patriotism, was exactly what should not be done for an opening ceremony of the Olympic games.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

If indeed the Haitians we are getting these days are from the lower classes, I still haven't noticed any communication problems with them in French.

Like I've said, they probably pick up the language quickly once they arrive in Québec, because Haitian Creole is based on French. But I doubt they could speak well on day 1. If they live in Anglo-America, they have great trouble speaking French.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Typical French left-wing elites. They believe that you have to hide all national elements from such ceremonies, and make something "global" and "cosmopolitan" to appear more open-minded, inclusive, open to the world, etc. Very Canadian I suppose?

They had already done the same for the bicentennial of the French Revolution in 1989. The parade at night on the Champs-Elysées baffled 'old France' commentators, because it contained no references whatsoever to France or French history, but was more some strange "world parade", with Black dancers from Benin, Soviet military men parading in Cheka uniforms from the Russian Civil War (to allude to the "revolution" I suppose), British double-decker buses, and other bands and floats from countries all around the world, with an over-representation of Black ones (either African, or Black Americans, such as an entire company of Black majorettes from the US deep south... the French Left has always had an attraction for Black Americans).

The singer who sang the Marseillaise (which was really the only reference to France during the entire ceremony) was herself... a Black American opera singer, Jessye Norman (despite the fact France is not lacking in opera singers). Her performance was brilliant though, so it wasn't a bad choice in retrospect.

• Video Link

So you should expect pretty much the same for the opening ceremony of these Paris Olympic games. Almost no reference to France, more of a "world ceremony", with lots of Black and Black American artists. Among the 4 people in charge of the ceremony, they've hired a French historian who is a militant of "world history", who believes national history shouldn't be taught anymore, French history doesn't exist as such, all the things that happened in France are just part of world history, bla bla bla. This has been criticized in right-wing French media in recent weeks, but this is typical of Macron who believes speaking English and being "inclusive" of all world culture is the way to be modern and open-minded. That French historian has said that the opening ceremony in Beijing in 2008, with its emphasis on Chinese history and Chinese patriotism, was exactly what should not be done for an opening ceremony of the Olympic games.

Jessye Norman was a fantastic singer and also a friend of France and the French language.

But personally when watching the Olympic opening ceremony I like it to be a window on the host country's culture for me.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Author Dany Laferrière and former Governor General of Canada and Francophonie head Michaëlle Jean are from Haiti's upper class. Though they ended up in Canada as a result of a migration from a couple of decades ago.

If indeed the Haitians we are getting these days are from the lower classes, I still haven't noticed any communication problems with them in French.

I was not aware of the make-up of the Haitian immigrant community. I thought Quebec had pretty much soaked up what middle class Haiti had and I guess I just assumed such folk would have French in addition to Creole. For a literate Creole speaker, however, would it be that hard to get to passable French?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

But personally when watching the Olympic opening ceremony I like it to be a window on the host country's culture for me.

France lost its marbles long ago (since the late 1970s I'd say, or perhaps 1968). Don't expect anything anymore in terms of culture form that country. At least not during our lifetime.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Probably the bigger scandal is why there are so many foreign artists being hired to perform at the opening ceremony lol. I couldn't imagine this happening in Vancouver's 2010 opening ceremony, or if Montréal or Toronto hosted the summer games. I doubt the organizers of Montréal's JO would hire Mylène Farmer (though she is born in Québec) over homegrown talent or naturalized Québécois like Lara Fabian.

Even more confusing is getting Snoop Dog to carry the final leg of the torch to Seine Saint-Denis. I guess he has more cachet in France?

Jerry Lewis was not available ...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

France lost its marbles long ago (since the late 1970s I'd say, or perhaps 1968). Don't expect anything anymore in terms of culture form that country. At least not during our lifetime.

Obviously personally I don't need the Olympic ceremony to teach me about French culture, but still it would be nice and logical if it reflected France. Especially since a country hosting the games doesn't happen that frequently.

(Note also that anglosphere countries don't do this. You wouldn't have K-pop band BTS singing in Korean at the opening of the Olympics in London or LA.)

[kwoldtimer]

If the French were British, the opening ceremony would feature dancers dressed like baguettes, croissants, roquefort and brie, and striped tops/berets, along with an Eiffel Tower. Collective shudder.

Edit: Maybe also a mime doing Olympic sports.