National Economy

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Conversion is mostly unfeasible and where possible is almost as expensive and time consuming as building from scratch. Federal lands without buildings on them are much more plentiful in most cases.

Government workers need to be back in the office 5 days a week. It has defintely been a failure of prodcutivity. Unsurprising given the lack of supervision and motivation of much of the public service.

I worked in the office today and was definitely less productive. SO many interruptions, distractions from others, air conditioning wasn't working properly so it was hot and stuffy. I had a headache just like I often used to get when working there every day. I'm so glad I'm working from home the rest of the week.

If you saw the work I do I think you'd rather me be more productive and actually work from home. Why do you want me on the road and adding more traffic?

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Build.It

No offense pal, but if I were your boss I'd tell you to either fix your attitude or go find another job in Timmins.

Just because you can concentrate on one thing for longer without interruption at home doesn't make you more productive. For Executives to do their job effectively they need to know everything that is going in their organization, and that includes how their biggest expense (their staff) are spending their time - trust has nothing to do with it. If you're remote and your competitor is in-office, your competitor is going to win, because their executives know their business way better than you know yours, and will be able to make much higher leverage changes to improve efficiency, fix major problems, grow, etc.

The federal government doesn't have a competitor, but that's not an excuse to not operate efficiently.

You really don't know what I do and know that many people I know in the private sector also work from home. I do have in-person meetings at the office and spend some days there but the setup post-covid has actually been the real issue as we no longer sit together as teams and no longer have our own cubicles. It is the fault of upper management yet the current government makes people like me look like we're the problem.

Here is something a well known politician said that I really agree with:

https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/video/1.6180602

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Also bothers the retailers and restauranteurs in downtowns all across this country barely hanging on to their businesses because all their former customers are eating ham sandwiches in their kitchen at lunchtime, wearing bathrobes and slippers rather than stimulating the economy downtown (like they were intended to do).

A minor sacrifice relative to the many larger, modern problems that hybrid/WFH workplaces help to alleviate, such as:

-Easing congestion by having fewer people commuting at any one time.
-Enabling people to seek out more affordable housing by not having to live within daily commuting distance of their jobs / giving access to a larger job market.
-Making childcare easier for the typical two-working-parent household.
-Allowing companies to spend less on (very expensive) office space.

There's a reason why workers - especially younger ones - overwhelmingly favour hybrid/flexible workplaces and resent RTO policies; and it's not because they're lazy or anti-social. Also, as we saw during the pandemic: while CBDs floundered, local neighbourhood retail strips flourished. All those WFH'ers are still going out for coffee or lunch or to run errards - they're just doing it at their local spots instead of the downtown ones.

[bobbyir]

Honestly, I feel like everything is getting more expensive every day, from groceries to rent. Inflation is getting worse and worse every year. The only thing that saves my financial situation is betting on sports. I analyse and watch matches professionally. The best way to do this is to go to boomerang bet

[shreddog]

The past couple pages have been interesting ....

... on a forum dedicated to skyscrapers, which traditionally have been for office space in CBDs, but lately for housing in CBDs due mostly to the energies those CBDs have because of the centralization of office space into skyscrapers ...

... the discussion is pro-WFH and pro-strip mall economies.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by shreddog

The past couple pages have been interesting ....

... on a forum dedicated to skyscrapers, which traditionally have been for office space in CBDs, but lately for housing in CBDs due mostly to the energies those CBDs have because of the centralization of office space into skyscrapers ...

... the discussion is pro-WFH and pro-strip mall economies.

Ironic, isn’t it.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by shreddog

The past couple pages have been interesting ....

... on a forum dedicated to skyscrapers, which traditionally have been for office space in CBDs, but lately for housing in CBDs due mostly to the energies those CBDs have because of the centralization of office space into skyscrapers ...

... the discussion is pro-WFH and pro-strip mall economies.

There's also a shockingly high number of people in this forum who are strongly opposed to density and are pro-sprawl. Converting office buildings in the downtown core to condos is actually a net gain for most communities, in the long run. Even if the transition can be a bit rough. Creates more foot traffic and local spending than suburban office workers spending lunch money ever will.

[Truenorth00]

I prefer working in the office but I find the current federal plan an absolute disaster and that's because it's entirely driven by optics. Mostly by the panic about public servants not being in the core.

I'll give an example. I worked in a building which houses the Navy and Air Force project staff. The Army projects staff was next door. Their building had a large fire which required them to move. The government leased them a building. As WFH normalized during COVID, the government decided not to renew the lease. They decided to accomodate the army staff in our building by reorganizing our space for everybody to share cubicles (tech companies do this a lot). But this entire plan is predicated on only half the people on campus at any time. There isn't enough cubicles, parking or even washrooms for everybody to be in at the same time. So now there's a scramble and panic. And quiet non-compliance with 5 days a week for military and three days a week for civilians. Likewise, our growing ops and space units are so short for space they are considering splitting up teams to work half away across town. Should be great for productivity when the boss and their subordinates are 40 km apart. To say this whole thing has been a cluster fuck would be an understatement.

If they want everybody back in, to how things were in Feb 2020, they should spend the billions and buy back all the office space they gave up. This whole give up space and go back to 5 days a week isn't working out very well.

On productivity itself, the problem isn't lack of presence. It's bad management. Tech companies have long operated with hybrid models that have limited time in the office. But they have developed strong management practices and workflows for this. Everybody meets online every morning. Tasks are tracked online with software. Deliverables and schedules are assessed weekly. The team I work in right now runs like this. I don't think there would be any difference between their 2 days WFH and 0 WFH. But for teams that don't do this, it would be impossible to ensure productivity. Those places probably have poor productivity even when everybody is in the office.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

There's also a shockingly high number of people in this forum who are strongly opposed to density and are pro-sprawl. Converting office buildings in the downtown core to condos is actually a net gain for most communities, in the long run. Even if the transition can be a bit rough. Creates more foot traffic and local spending than suburban office workers spending lunch money ever will.

That seems highly unlikely. Public works is putting employees in well under 100 sq feet. A residential conversion is probably putting people into 400-500 square feet. Unless a resident is buying 5 lunches a day it isn't coming close.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I prefer working in the office but I find the current federal plan an absolute disaster and that's because it's entirely driven by optics. Mostly by the panic about public servants not being in the core.

I'll give an example. I worked in a building which houses the Navy and Air Force project staff. The Army projects staff was next door. Their building had a large fire which required them to move. The government leased them a building. As WFH normalized during COVID, the government decided not to renew the lease. They decided to accomodate the army staff in our building by reorganizing our space for everybody to share cubicles (tech companies do this a lot). But this entire plan is predicated on only half the people on campus at any time. There isn't enough cubicles, parking or even washrooms for everybody to be in at the same time. So now there's a scramble and panic. And quiet non-compliance with 5 days a week for military and three days a week for civilians. Likewise, our growing ops and space units are so short for space they are considering splitting up teams to work half away across town. Should be great for productivity when the boss and their subordinates are 40 km apart. To say this whole thing has been a cluster fuck would be an understatement.

If they want everybody back in, to how things were in Feb 2020, they should spend the billions and buy back all the office space they gave up. This whole give up space and go back to 5 days a week isn't working out very well.

I agree it is a mess and the 80k bureaucrats they hired after 2019 does not help either. Public works was also moving government offices to hot desking even before the pandemic without any of the tools to make such an arrangement workable.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

That seems highly unlikely. Public works is putting employees in well under 100 sq feet. A residential conversion is probably putting people into 400-500 square feet. Unless a resident is buying 5 lunches a day it isn't coming close.

1) Not every employee is buying lunch everyday.

2) Residents have to buy groceries.

Put it this way. There's no city I've ever been to that is lively because of a high proportion of office workers in their core. It's always because of a high proportion of residents. Ottawa's downtown is particularly dead because nobody lives there. Trying to make it less dead for 8 hrs a day instead of lively for 12 hrs a day says everything about the mentality of this town.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I agree it is a mess and the 80k bureaucrats they hired after 2019 does not help either. Public works was also moving government offices to hot desking even before the pandemic without any of the tools to make such an arrangement workable.

They seem to want the flexibility of the tech sector without the actual investment and training. One of our teams asked the director to pay for Slack right before (a month) the pandemic. It was refused because, "What situation is going to require everybody to be home with all of you online at the same time?"

The tech tools have gotten better. But they still don't design the buildings with enough shared spaces. And now this crunch is making all worse. Maybe they gotta go make to Feb 2020 staffing numbers to free up room

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

1) Not every employee is buying lunch everyday.

2) Residents have to buy groceries.

Put it this way. There's no city I've ever been to that is lively because of a high proportion of office workers in their core. It's always because of a high proportion of residents. Ottawa's downtown is particularly dead because nobody lives there. Trying to make it less dead for 8 hrs a day instead of lively for 12 hrs a day says everything about the mentality of this town.

No, but not every downtown resident is spending money every day either, but you're replacing them at a 5 to 1 ratio.

Yeah, but a grocery store is a fairly limited ecosystem and the threshold for a new grocery store is pretty high.

I don't think it is either to be honest. If you look at places that are lively in major cities a fraction of the people either work or live there. Hardly anyone lives in central Rome or the West End of London. People go to these places from other parts of the city or metro area because they are lively or interesting, not because they live nearby. If local residents make an area lively then all of these commie block apartment districts would be happening places. They are not.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

Why do you want me on the road and adding more traffic?

But you live in Timmins, mon ami. How much traffic can there be even if all the federal public servants are on the road at the same time?

Seriously though, one positive about the federal public service working from home a lot, it's that it's given the overall transportation system in Ottawa-Gatineau a bit of breathing room.

Not as much as one might think though, and of course it's only a temporary respite.

With the move to three days a week in September plus back to school, the region will move another step closer to what congestion we had before the pandemic.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

1) Not every employee is buying lunch everyday.

2) Residents have to buy groceries.

Put it this way. There's no city I've ever been to that is lively because of a high proportion of office workers in their core. It's always because of a high proportion of residents. Ottawa's downtown is particularly dead because nobody lives there. Trying to make it less dead for 8 hrs a day instead of lively for 12 hrs a day says everything about the mentality of this town.

Are there any other places in the world where a large employer of the scale of Canada's federal government went from having most of its staff working on site in a central city to working from home dispersed over a huge area in just a couple of years, and has still maintained that set-up more or less permanently?

My guess is that basically everywhere in the world people in such job situations are back in the office most days of the week, no?

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by shreddog

... the discussion is pro-WFH and pro-strip mall economies.

Where are people saying they're "pro-strip mall economies"?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I don't think it is either to be honest. If you look at places that are lively in major cities a fraction of the people either work or live there. Hardly anyone lives in central Rome or the West End of London. People go to these places from other parts of the city or metro area because they are lively or interesting, not because they live nearby. If local residents make an area lively then all of these commie block apartment districts would be happening places. They are not.

Those places have substantial high density residential areas within walking or short transit ride. Ottawa does not. A better comparison is say Toronto of the 90s vs Toronto today. Having residents in the core has made all the difference.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Berklon

Where are people saying they're "pro-strip mall economies"?

So you're supposing that most public servants working from home are doing their shopping at Miss Tiggy Winkle's Grocery on Main Street in Manotick as opposed to Costco on Merivale Road in Nepean?

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by Acajack

So you're supposing that most public servants working from home are doing their shopping at Miss Tiggy Winkle's Grocery on Main Street in Manotick as opposed to Costco on Merivale Road in Nepean?

I think it's funny that people who WFH are accused of working less and spending their work day doing chores and running errands, yet you expect people who work downtown to go grocery shopping (and other types of shopping) during the day.

People who go into the office will once in a while buy a coffee or lunch, and maybe drop by the dry cleaners and do small little errands downtown. Generally, they're not going grocery shopping, going to Home Depot, etc. while they're down there. People who live downtown will keep the majority of those businesses alive. The complaints are generally coming from the coffee shops and restaurants - who somehow think that others have to sacrifice convenience, and spend more money/time to commute while adding to air pollution - all so these little businesses can make some money. Talk about entitled.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Are there any other places in the world where a large employer of the scale of Canada's federal government went from having most of its staff working on site in a central city to working from home dispersed over a huge area in just a couple of years, and has still maintained that set-up more or less permanently?

My guess is that basically everywhere in the world people in such job situations are back in the office most days of the week, no?

A lot of Silicon Valley. Even New York is not back to 100% RTO. I would actually say there's particular industries (mostly white collar) which have become habituated to some form of hybrid. Tech was already like this before COVID. Finance has discovered it with COVID.

I personally find some form of hybrid works best for me. Even if it's a day. Just saves being in the office on days when I am just doing stuff online. I wouldn't want to do a French class on Teams from my cubicle for example. Or just small concurrent activity, that way I don't have to take a day off to let the super in. For actual collaborative work the office is better. But one of the problems we have with this space crunch is a lack of collaborative space.