Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I assume that the numbers cited in this report are only a tiny tip of the iceberg.

https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/1987193/impots-adresse-ontario-quebec-revenu

Yeah who knows. Also don't forget it's not just the extra tax revenue is lost but all the provincial tax revenue goes to Ontario. At the end of the day though it's really a rounding error as it's not even a significant portion of Gatineau's population let alone the whole province. I get people get angry on principle mostly as they are jealous they don't have a business or relative they can pretend to live with themselves.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

That's because you see the government as a seperate entitity like a fairy godmother. "The government is lowering our pensions" As if a magic money tree will pay for it. We see ourselves as taxpayers and resent others cheating the system.

Feel free to come here and preach the Gospel.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

There is, actually. Not for the income tax, but for local taxes.

And I'm sure if I went to live in Spain with a French licence plate, no neighbor would denounce me to the authorities. The thought of it is crazy.

If you lived in Paris but with a Liechtenstein license plate, indicating that’s where your “on paper” residence is and your income is all ending up, you don’t think the fiscal authorities would eventually show up?

There’s a reason Depardieu wanted so badly to have his official residency outside the Hexagon :p

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by lio45

If you lived in Paris but with a Liechtenstein license plate, indicating that’s where your “on paper” residence is and your income is all ending up, you don’t think the fiscal authorities would eventually show up?

The tax authority tracks you where you work. That's how it works here. Your employer makes a declaration to the authorities as to where you work. You could never be considered a Liechtenstein resident if you worked in Paris. And if you're an independent worker you have to declare your business to the authorities too. And if you don't they have many ways to know you have a business anyway, unless you work in the black economy, but then we enter the realm of criminality.

License plate is totally irrelevant here. It really makes no difference what license plate you have. At my former address there were regularly cars parked with Saudi or Emirati license plates, and nobody cared. When I was a student (in Paris), there was a car parked on the avenue for more than a year with a license plate from Guerrero State in Mexico and nobody cared.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The tax authority tracks you where you work. That's how it works here. Your employer makes a declaration to the authorities as to where you work. You could never be considered a Liechtenstein resident if you worked in Paris. And if you're an independent worker you have to declare your business to the authorities too. And if you don't they have many ways to know you have a business anyway, unless you work in the black economy, but then we enter the realm of criminality.

License plate is totally irrelevant here. It really makes no difference what license plate you have. At my former address there were regularly cars parked with Saudi or Emirati license plates, and nobody cared. When I was a student (in Paris), there was a car parked on the avenue for more than a year with a license plate from Guerrero State in Mexico and nobody cared.

The plates do matter on some borders where Denmark has an 85% car registration and Germany's is 30 Euros.

I guess that is the difference. In Canada between provinces you pay tax where you live not where you work. This actually makes more sense because how does it work in Europe when many people work in Luxembourg but live in Germany or France? France just has to eat all the cost of their education and healthcare?

[New Brisavoine]

Regarding people who live in border areas, let's take a case similar to the Ottawa-Gatineau example: say you're a German from Karlsruhe. Salaries in Germany are higher than in France, and taxes are lower than in France. On the other hand, houses cost less in France, so many Germans from the border area choose to reside in France while continuing working in Germany.

So say you are from Karlsruhe, you work in Karlsruhe (= Ottawa), but you choose to buy a house in Lauterbourg, France (= Gatineau), only half an hour away by car, because it's cheaper. You get a cross-border worker status. You can either keep paying your taxes in Germany, or you opt to pay your taxes in France. Most likely you'll keep paying your taxes in Germany, as they are lower than in France.

The income tax is deducted from the gross salary by the employer. So basically your employer in Karlsruhe sent your income tax to the German government and wired you only your net salary, and if you buy a house in Lauterbourg and settle there, then nothing changes, your German employer keeps sending your income tax to the German government, and you don't have to pay the French income tax since you have a cross-border worker status.

It's beyond me how in a country like Canada that always obsesses about its unity you guys haven't devised something like that for cross-province workers. And the authorities going as far as expecting neighbors to inform them when someone with an out of province license plate lives in the neighborhood. That sounds pretty insane.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Regarding people who live in border areas, let's take a case similar to the Ottawa-Gatineau example: say you're a German from Karlsruhe. Salaries in Germany are higher than in France, and taxes are lower than in France. On the other hand, houses cost less in France, so many Germans from the border area choose to reside in France while continuing working in Germany.

So say you are from Karlsruhe, you work in Karlsruhe (= Ottawa), but you choose to buy a house in Lauterbourg, France (= Gatineau), only half an hour away by car, because it's cheaper. You get a cross-border worker status. You can either keep paying your taxes in Germany, or you opt to pay your taxes in France. Most likely you'll keep paying your taxes in Germany, as they are lower than in France.

The income tax is deducted from the gross salary by the employer. So basically your employer in Karlsruhe sent your income tax to the German government and wired you only your net salary, and if you buy a house in Lauterbourg and settle there, then nothing changes, your German employer keeps sending your income tax to the German government, and you don't have to pay the French income tax since you have a cross-border worker status.

It's beyond me how in a country like Canada that always obsesses about its unity you guys haven't devised something like that for cross-province workers. And the authorities going as far as expecting neighbors to inform them when someone with an out of province license plate lives in the neighborhood. That sounds pretty insane.

Honestly your system sounds just as complicated. But I don't think anyone claims Canada is highly unified. In many ways there are more barriers between provinces than bewteen EU member states.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

It's beyond me how in a country like Canada that always obsesses about its unity you guys haven't devised something like that for cross-province workers. And the authorities going as far as expecting neighbors to inform them when someone with an out of province license plate lives in the neighborhood. That sounds pretty insane.

It'd be pretty much impossible to get buy in from Revenu Québec for such an arrangement, given that Québec would be the one who obviously has to give up tax revenue as the higher tax jurisdiction.

Most Québécois would rather be like Ontarians, who only has to file 1 income tax return versus 2 seperate returns in Québec, but the Government of Québec for obvious political reasons won't acquiesce.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Honestly your system sounds just as complicated. But I don't think anyone claims Canada is highly unified. In many ways there are more barriers between provinces than bewteen EU member states.

That's probably the biggest failure of the Canadian federal government, is its failure of leadership to reduce inter-provincial trade and regulation barriers. No question that EU mandarins in Brussels are much better at it than functionnaires in Ottawa.

[Acajack]

I doubt it's actually the case that one can live in one country, use all of its services (schools for your kids, healthcare) but pay all of your taxes to the government of another country simply because you work there.

From what I can see in Switzerland-France, if you work in Switzerland but live in France, you need to pay your income taxes to France. They are deducted automatically by your Swiss employer and then a transfer is made to France on your behalf.

The main advantage seems to be that in some cantons there is an agreement for French residents whereby they are taxed at the lower Swiss rate (as you said) and the French government accepts this as full payment of one's income taxes.

In other cantons it looks like you still have to pay to France what you'd pay if you worked in France, even if your job is in Switzerland. So likely more than what your colleagues who live in Switzerland pay in taxes.

Again, I don't think any state would accept that that many people could benefit from their services while paying all their taxes to another state.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I guess that is the difference. In Canada between provinces you pay tax where you live not where you work. This actually makes more sense because how does it work in Europe when many people work in Luxembourg but live in Germany or France? France just has to eat all the cost of their education and healthcare?

It's a win-win situation that you guys don't seem to understand. When French people resident in the French suburbs of Geneva work in Geneva, they pay their income tax in Geneva (where it's lower than in France), but France benefits from the Geneva economy in many ways: houses get built on the French side of the border, the consumer economy is booming on the French side of the border, this in turn attracts more businesses on the French side of the border.

The French part of the Geneva metro area is the fastest growing in France. Its growth rate is akin to the fastest growing US Sunbelt metro areas. At the last census (2021), a record 444,000 people lived in the French part of the Geneva metro area. This is a population that is now larger than the entire metro area of Angers, and close to the metro area of Orléans. Within 30 years, it will become more populated than the metro areas of Nice or Rouen. If we applied the same weird taxation system as you have, this area would never have developed, as people would have had no incentive to settle on the French side of the border.

The same is true for Northern Alsace: the dozens of municipalities there benefit tremendously from their closeness to Karlsruhe and other German economic centers. They would be far more economically depressed if the cross-border worker status didn't exist. Ditto for Southern Alsace next to Basel, or northern Moselle close to Luxembourg.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

It'd be pretty much impossible to get buy in from Revenu Québec for such an arrangement, given that Québec would be the one who obviously has to give up tax revenue as the higher tax jurisdiction.

Most Québécois would rather be like Ontarians, who only has to file 1 income tax return versus 2 seperate returns in Québec, but the Government of Québec for obvious political reasons won't acquiesce.

Just to clarify, Ontarians still pay Ontario provincial taxes to Ontario. It's just that the federal and Ontario forms are integrated. Basically, the Ontario taxes are simply a percentage of the federal ones.

Quebec has its own (complex!) series of deductions, credits and exemptions that are very distinct from the federal ones.

It's actually Quebec governments (of various colours) who have approached the federal government about a single tax return - controlled by Quebec of course - for years, but the federal government refuses to give up control.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

It's a win-win situation that you guys don't seem to understand. When French people resident in the French suburbs of Geneva work in Geneva, they pay their income tax in Geneva (where it's lower than in France), but France benefits from the Geneva economy in many ways: houses get built on the French side of the border, the consumer economy is booming on the French side of the border, this in turn attracts more businesses on the French side of the border.

If you feel so passionate about it, maybe you should send an anonymous complaint to Revenu Québec and the Government of Québec, because pretty much they're the biggest obstacles in implementing such a policy.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

It'd be pretty much impossible to get buy in from Revenu Québec for such an arrangement, given that Québec would be the one who obviously has to give up tax revenue as the higher tax jurisdiction.

How so? With such a tax regime, probably many workers from Ottawa would buy houses in Gatineau. Construction boom + property tax + sales tax (all these people would do their shopping locally in Gatineau) = lots of revenues for Québec.

Of course there'd be the issue of language, which is another issue altogether. CAQ and PQ would hardly accept 30% of Gatineau becoming Anglophones.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Quebec has its own (complex!) series of deductions, credits and exemptions that are very distinct from the federal ones.

Actually, if you've ever filed a US state income tax return (like California or the South), you'd find that Quebec is much more synchronised with federal tax law.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Just to clarify, Ontarians still pay Ontario provincial taxes to Ontario. It's just that the federal and Ontario forms are integrated. Basically, the Ontario taxes are simply a percentage of the federal ones.

Quebec has its own (complex!) series of deductions, credits and exemptions that are very distinct from the federal ones.

It's actually Quebec governments (of various colours) who have approached the federal government about a single tax return - controlled by Quebec of course - for years, but the federal government refuses to give up control.

Every province has it's own set of deductions. The rest of the provinces let the CRA collect for them but there isn't a difference in actual policy room. You can still make different tax decisions. Quebec tries to pretend it has more autonomy than it does so has a lot of expensive duplication. One of the big reasons for the tax differential.

Also important to note that Canada has much more complicated taxes than EU states.

US states like Quebec also have seperate agencies and the need to file seperately. Some don't have state income tax at all which Alberta could probably get away with but wouldn't save the huge adminstration costs that the states benefit from so they stick with no sales tax lowish property taxes and lowish income taxes.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

How so? With such a tax regime, probably many workers from Ottawa would buy houses in Gatineau. Construction boom + property tax + sales tax (all these people would do their shopping locally in Gatineau) = lots of revenues for Québec.

Of course there'd be the issue of language, which is another issue altogether. CAQ and PQ would hardly accept 30% of Gatineau becoming Anglophones.

Because Quebec's primary source of revenue is personal income tax. Language isn't the issue.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

No question that EU mandarins in Brussels are much better at it than functionnaires in Ottawa.

These cross-border tax regimes were negotiated by the governments themselves, between themselves. No intervention from the EU. The EU has very little power over taxation (the low tax countries like formerly UK, and now Ireland, have always opposed an increase of EU powers in the taxation area).

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's actually Quebec governments (of various colours) who have approached the federal government about a single tax return - controlled by Quebec of course - for years, but the federal government refuses to give up control.

Given how Revenu Quebec is barely functional as an agency, maybe it's a good thing it doesn't go ahead.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Because Quebec's primary source of revenue is personal income tax. Language isn't the issue.

Language is still at least part of it too. It always is in Quebec.