Federal Government & Politics II

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by Hecate

lol. If you ignore everything the Palestinians and arabs have done to Israel since 1948 it would seem that Israel is just as bad. But they’ve been dealing with these assholes for almost a century now and they’re sick of it. They’ve tried many times to make peace and have been repeatedly stabbed in the back.

Maybe they shouldn’t have bitten the hand that feeds them

How was the state of Israel founded?

Hand that feeds?! Yeah Netanyahu brags about how he funded Hamas so that there would never be a legitimate government so that there can be no 2 state solution.

[shreddog]

La France .... tactical alliance ... could we see the same thing in 2025??

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by shreddog

La France .... tactical alliance ... could we see the same thing in 2025??

The electorate might not be as afraid but the political leadership should be. NDP/LIberal agreeing to not run against incumbents who run again and spliting the rest would make it tough for Conservatives to get a majority. I suspect they'd still get it as a lot of that NDP vote would melt into Green and some into Con votes and in non BC ridings the Cons might get a big chunk of the Liberal vote. That would be an important lesson for the ranked vote propopents or Proportional Representation.

[Hackslack]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

How was the state of Israel founded?

Hand that feeds?! Yeah Netanyahu brags about how he funded Hamas so that there would never be a legitimate government so that there can be no 2 state solution.

Would LOVE to see what Hamas has to say about a 2 state solution…..

I dunno about you, but judging by the Oct 7 mass killing and raping and kidnapping, I’ve got some kind of idea of what they’d say…. What about you O-tac, what do you think Hamas would say about a 2 state solution?

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Hackslack

Would LOVE to see what Hamas has to say about a 2 state solution…..

I dunno about you, but judging by the Oct 7 mass killing and raping and kidnapping, I’ve got some kind of idea of what they’d say…. What about you O-tac, what do you think Hamas would say about a 2 state solution?

From April - "— A top Hamas political official told The Associated Press the Islamic militant group is willing to agree to a truce of five years or more with Israel and that it would lay down its weapons and convert into a political party if an independent Palestinian state is established along pre-1967 borders.

The comments by Khalil al-Hayya in an interview Wednesday came amid a stalemate in months of talks for a cease-fire in Gaza. The suggestion that Hamas would disarm appeared to be a significant concession by the militant group officially committed to Israel’s destruction.

But it’s unlikely Israel would consider such a scenario. It has vowed to crush Hamas following the deadly Oct. 7 attacks that triggered the war, and its current leadership is adamantly opposed to the creation of a Palestinian state on lands Israel captured in the 1967 Mideast war."

Associated Press

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by Hackslack

Would LOVE to see what Hamas has to say about a 2 state solution…..

I dunno about you, but judging by the Oct 7 mass killing and raping and kidnapping, I’ve got some kind of idea of what they’d say…. What about you O-tac, what do you think Hamas would say about a 2 state solution?

Who cares what Hamas thinks. The point of the 2 state solution was to replace Hamas with the Palestinian Authority or another government and give Palestinians autonomy over their own territory alongside Israel. Netanyahu has opposed it by sending millions to Hamas and propping them up so that Palestine will forever be a prison state that he can use as a political boogeyman because of Hamas.

[savevp]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Who cares what Hamas thinks.

Probably the Palestinian people, who elected Hamas.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Changing City

From April - "— A top Hamas political official told The Associated Press the Islamic militant group is willing to agree to a truce of five years or more with Israel and that it would lay down its weapons and convert into a political party if an independent Palestinian state is established along pre-1967 borders.

The comments by Khalil al-Hayya in an interview Wednesday came amid a stalemate in months of talks for a cease-fire in Gaza. The suggestion that Hamas would disarm appeared to be a significant concession by the militant group officially committed to Israel’s destruction.

But it’s unlikely Israel would consider such a scenario. It has vowed to crush Hamas following the deadly Oct. 7 attacks that triggered the war, and its current leadership is adamantly opposed to the creation of a Palestinian state on lands Israel captured in the 1967 Mideast war."

Pre-1967 borders and a five year ceasefire. Yeah sure. That's a complete non-starter so irrelevant. I'm sure Russia is willing to agree to a five year cease fire to return to 1917 borders and they are just as likely to use the time and new land to break the cease fire.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by savevp

Probably the Palestinian people, who elected Hamas.

20 years ago and meanwhile, Israelis elected their terrorist representatives on the regular.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

One is a semi functional democracy that doesn’t murder protesters, the other is a terrorist organization that quashes dissent with violence. Hmm both seem the same to me.

To be fair, after 9/11, nobody said, "Well the Taliban is a terrorist organization that quashes dissent with violence." And proportionally 10/7 was an order of magnitude worse than 9/11. What do you think the US would have done if 9/11 was 30k dead instead of 3k?

If we don't like what they're doing, nothing stopping us from reducing or caveating our support. But that should be based on judgements of our national interests, not emotional appeals from diasporas here.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

To be fair, after 9/11, nobody said, "Well the Taliban is a terrorist organization that quashes dissent with violence." And proportionally 10/7 was an order of magnitude worse than 9/11. What do you think the US would have done if 9/11 was 30k dead instead of 3k?

If we don't like what they're doing, nothing stopping us from reducing or caveating our support. But that should be based on judgements of our national interests, not emotional appeals from diasporas here.

Yes, ignoring the cries of those whose relatives are being slaughtered is the “sensible” approach. How ignorant would we be to engage with their… shudder… emotions. Why can’t they just die in silence, without support? /s

The US response to 9/11 was also self-destructive and disproportionate. The fact that you hold it up as an example to guide one’s approach or what should be normative here is interesting…

America played a role in instigating 9/11 and in the case of Palestine, the role played by Israel rises to an entirely different level of responsibility. Ignoring that responsibility feeds into justified anti-Western sentiment.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Remember a few months ago when a certain cryptobro member was praising El Salvador's proto-dictator?

Well, now he's turning on the business community (video in link):



https://x.com/DanielDiMartino/status...673600746?s=19

What a lot of these people who simp over El Salvador or Argentina don't understand is that these countries have had much more extreme versions of the problems their presidents are getting (in)famous for addressing. Crime in El Salvador before Bukele was on a level far beyond anything we've faced here, while in Argentina, inflation and government spending nuking economic productivity were similarly much, much worse than anything faced in the West. That's why the citizens of those countries were willing to vote for such extreme policies to fix these issues. If anything, these countries are a warning sign for how a complete failure to address issues can cause radicals to gain power.. they're not a model to follow.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Who cares what Hamas thinks. The point of the 2 state solution was to replace Hamas with the Palestinian Authority or another government and give Palestinians autonomy over their own territory alongside Israel. Netanyahu has opposed it by sending millions to Hamas and propping them up so that Palestine will forever be a prison state that he can use as a political boogeyman because of Hamas.

Who is going to replace Hamas with the Palestinian Authority? Who is going to prevent Hamas from being elected again? Who is going to prevent the Palestinian State from accumulating Iranian weapons for another attack on Israel in support of Hamas’s Sea-to-Sea doctrine?

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

No the pro israel side has been responsible for physically attacking students using their free speech with the support of the police.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2024/05/01/...-new-york.html

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2...ael-supporters

Look, I'm not going to get into this topic on this thread, but you're seriously harming your credibility by posting Al Jazeera links. It would be like if someone posted something from Russia Today in a discussion about Ukraine. State-owned dictator media shouldn't be posted here.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by shreddog

La France .... tactical alliance ... could we see the same thing in 2025??

Nowhere near comparable (Thank God). The French were literally put in a position of making a three way choice between the far-right, the far-left, and a much-hated centrist incumbent party. Le Pen is a threat to French democracy itself. Pollievre is just a conservative. There is a huge difference.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Changing City

From April - "— A top Hamas political official told The Associated Press the Islamic militant group is willing to agree to a truce of five years or more with Israel and that it would lay down its weapons and convert into a political party if an independent Palestinian state is established along pre-1967 borders.

The comments by Khalil al-Hayya in an interview Wednesday came amid a stalemate in months of talks for a cease-fire in Gaza. The suggestion that Hamas would disarm appeared to be a significant concession by the militant group officially committed to Israel’s destruction.

But it’s unlikely Israel would consider such a scenario. It has vowed to crush Hamas following the deadly Oct. 7 attacks that triggered the war, and its current leadership is adamantly opposed to the creation of a Palestinian state on lands Israel captured in the 1967 Mideast war."

Associated Press

Uhh.. last I checked, agreeing only to a "five year truce" in exchange for Palestinian independence is not exactly endorsing a 2SS. That is basically saying they'll accept Palestinian independence as a temporary step towards the genocidal destruction of the Israeli people.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Yes, ignoring the cries of those whose relatives are being slaughtered is the “sensible” approach. How ignorant would we be to engage with their… shudder… emotions. Why can’t they just die in silence, without support? /s

They can be loud all they want. Never suggested they should die in silence. But I'm not sure why exactly we should be compelled to help.

One can draw a fairly distinct line between helping Ukraine and our national interest, given Russia's historic animosity towards NATO. What's the national interest to be involved in Gaza?

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

The US response to 9/11 was also self-destructive and disproportionate. The fact that you hold it up as an example to guide one’s approach or what should be normative here is interesting…

I didn't say the American response to 9/11 was optimal. I suggested that having had that response, the US and the West don't have the moral authority to tell off the Israelis for an attack that is the equivalent of 10x worse.

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

America played a role in instigating 9/11 ...

Man. I really thought we'd be past 9/11 conspiracies by now.....

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

What a lot of these people who simp over El Salvador or Argentina don't understand is that these countries have had much more extreme versions of the problems their presidents are getting (in)famous for addressing. Crime in El Salvador before Bukele was on a level far beyond anything we've faced here, while in Argentina, inflation and government spending nuking economic productivity were similarly much, much worse than anything faced in the West. That's why the citizens of those countries were willing to vote for such extreme policies to fix these issues. If anything, these countries are a warning sign for how a complete failure to address issues can cause radicals to gain power.. they're not a model to follow.

Unfortunately, that's not the lesson the simps walk away with.

Also in Bukkele's case, his war on crime is starting to look suspect too with accusations of underreporting and falsification of statistics, and possibly his own ties to organized crime.

[MonctonRad]

JT has got to go.........

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

They can be loud all they want. Never suggested they should die in silence. But I'm not sure why exactly we should be compelled to help

Because it’s a moral obligation.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I didn't say the American response to 9/11 was optimal. I suggested that having had that response, the US and the West don't have the moral authority to tell off the Israelis for an attack that is the equivalent of 10x worse.

Those of us in the West who didn’t support the US response to 9/11 aren’t compromised by that. Anyone has the capacity to grow and then respond differently.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Man. I really thought we'd be past 9/11 conspiracies by now.....

The impact of American foreign policy on the rest of the world is not a conspiracy theory.