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  #2461  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2024, 5:19 PM
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Originally Posted by bomberjet View Post
No it was cancelled because it's a dumb idea.
You should tell that to all the major cities and countries in Europe, that have hundreds of them, and have a lower rate of traffic fatalities, or all the municipalities in Canada that have seen traffic accidents and fatalities cut in half.

Last edited by BlackDog204; Jul 6, 2024 at 10:38 PM.
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  #2462  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2024, 5:48 PM
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Im not following.. The link is for hwy 17 twinning and bridges/tunnels for animals. Is there something else about a different project that would eliminate the need for twinning 17?
There isn't. I intended the last part as a reply to the idea of an Interstate-98.
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  #2463  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2024, 5:50 PM
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Since the city and province can't really afford to build many overpass, I would love to see the implementation of large roundabouts like what they are doing at highway Interchange in Alberta.

If only we could turn back the clock, and make Sterling Lyon and Kenaston a large roundabout. Right now I would be in favor of constructing a large roundabout at Kenaston and McGillivray. The traffic is horrendous.

Are they not building a roundabout at the Trans-Canada and #16, west of Portage?
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Originally Posted by bomberjet View Post
No it was cancelled because it's a dumb idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackDog204 View Post
You should tell that to all the major cities and countries in Europe, that have hundreds of them, and have a lower rate of traffic fatalities, or all the municipalities in Canada that have seen traffic accidents and fatalities cut in half.

Then again, judging by your posting history, I doubt you have the intellectual capacity to navigate a roundabout, so I completely understand.
Go easy on one another...
If we build it like that giant circle in Moncton: https://maps.app.goo.gl/fYbtkbNhAqZo9rww7, it's always possible to retrofit a divided-6-lane freeway on top of it.
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  #2464  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2024, 6:22 PM
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haha. was waiting for that.

Freeways don't have round abouts on the mainline. If you don't care about that, put round abouts where you want.
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  #2465  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2024, 7:03 PM
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Originally Posted by bomberjet View Post
No it was cancelled because it's a dumb idea.
So good to hear, but as dumb as that idea was, the proposed intersection 'improvement' for the TCH and Hwy 5 are even dumber, and I'm praying those get cancelled as well.
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  #2466  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2024, 8:45 PM
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Originally Posted by bomberjet View Post
haha. was waiting for that.

Freeways don't have round abouts on the mainline. If you don't care about that, put round abouts where you want.
The city is not going to build or upgrade any road inside 5the Perimeter to freeway standards in my lifetime. That leaves us with 2 choices:

1.At-grade intersections, like Kenaston and the main roads it intersects.

2. Roundabouts.

Last edited by BlackDog204; Jul 5, 2024 at 9:02 PM.
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  #2467  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2024, 9:51 PM
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So good to hear, but as dumb as that idea was, the proposed intersection 'improvement' for the TCH and Hwy 5 are even dumber, and I'm praying those get cancelled as well.
It's just "dumb" to Winnipeggers who have obviously never spent considerable time in other parts of Canada. Why is Alberta building tons of roundabouts on highway intersections, where they are exponentially wealthier than Manitoba? It should be pointed out that safety regulations in that province are superior to Manitoba.

It's only dumb to people resisting change.

Last edited by BlackDog204; Jul 6, 2024 at 10:34 PM.
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  #2468  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2024, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by BlackDog204 View Post
I doubt you have the intellectual capacity to navigate a roundabout, so I completely understand.

Nahh Bomberjet is spot on about almost everything. And thankfully he speaks his mind. More need to call out the utter stupidity in this city and province and not care about the snowflake feelings that get hurt. Because it's insanity. If I wasn't stuck here, I'd have left long ago.

A roundabout on a freeway or main line is idiotic. They're fine in local/residential or residential collectors. Learn how to build overpasses efficiently for the rest. Pile, prefab beams, rinse and repeat.
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  #2469  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2024, 12:33 AM
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Originally Posted by bodaggin View Post
Nahh Bomberjet is spo1

A roundabout on a freeway or main line is idiotic.
There are no freeways in the Province of Manitoba

.
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  #2470  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2024, 2:07 AM
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Originally Posted by bodaggin View Post
Learn how to build overpasses efficiently for the rest. Pile, prefab beams, rinse and repeat.
Are you a billionaire, and planning on providing the funding for said overpasses? Since the city and province certainly will not, as they lack the funds.
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  #2471  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2024, 2:24 AM
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Originally Posted by BlackDog204 View Post
Are you a billionaire, and planning on providing the funding for said overpasses? Since the city and province certainly will not, as they lack the funds.
You might wanna check my Hydro thread.

I know the provincial budget inside and out. Have you studied it? Do you know how much is spent annually on transport infrastructure provincially? Do you even know where to find this number or how to read a balance sheet?
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  #2472  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2024, 4:05 AM
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Nvm
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  #2473  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2024, 5:32 AM
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Originally Posted by bodaggin View Post
You might wanna check my Hydro thread.
I did, but you were all over the place.

At any rate, your admiration of Danielle Smith, to the point of calling her a genius gave me a good laugh...

Last edited by BlackDog204; Jul 7, 2024 at 8:46 AM.
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  #2474  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2024, 5:41 AM
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B]Roundabouts are a safer alternative to traffic signals and stop signs[/B]. The tight circle of a roundabout forces drivers to slow down, and the most severe types of intersection crashes — right-angle, left-turn and head-on collisions — are unlikely.

Roundabouts improve traffic flow and are better for the environment. Research shows that traffic flow improves after traditional intersections are converted to roundabouts. Less idling reduces vehicle emissions and fuel consumption.

Roundabouts generally are safer for pedestrians. Pedestrians walk on sidewalks around the perimeter and cross only one direction of traffic at a time. Crossing distances are relatively short, and traffic speeds are lower than at traditional intersections.

The first modern roundabouts in the United States were constructed in Nevada in 1990. Since then, many more have been built, although the precise number is unknown. Roundabouts are much more common in some other countries, including Australia, the United Kingdom and France.

Although some states and cities have been slow to build roundabouts, they are gaining more popularity in the United States. Roundabouts are one of the evidence-based safety countermeasures recommended by the Federal Highway Administration.

Some states, such as New York and Virginia, have adopted "roundabout first" policies requiring that roundabouts be considered a preferred alternative when building new intersections or upgrading older ones if feasible (New York State Department of Transportation, 2011; Virginia State Department of Transportation, 2009).

Roundabouts are appropriate at many intersections, including high-crash locations and intersections with large traffic delays, complex geometry (more than four approach roads, for example), frequent left-turn movements, and relatively balanced traffic flows. Roundabouts can be constructed along congested arterials and at freeway exits and entrances, in lieu of traffic signals.

Sometimes space constraints or topography make it impossible to build a roundabout. Geometric design details vary from one site to another and must take into account traffic volumes, land use, topography and other factors. Roundabouts often require more space in the immediate vicinity of the intersection than comparable traditional intersections. However, because roundabouts can reduce delays and queue lengths, they require less space on the approaching roads than comparable intersections controlled by stop signs or traffic signals.

An intersection with highly unbalanced traffic flows (that is, a very high traffic volume on the main street and very light traffic on the side street) may not be an ideal candidate for a roundabout. The same is true for isolated intersections in a network of traffic signals.

While the initial construction cost of a roundabout varies site by site, its maintenance usually is cheaper than for intersections with signals. The service life of a roundabout is significantly longer, approximately 25 years, compared with 10 years for a typical traffic signal (Rodegerdts et al., 2010).
At traditional intersections with stop signs or traffic signals, some of the most common types of crashes are right-angle, left-turn, and head-on collisions. These types of collisions can be severe because vehicles may be traveling through the intersection at high speeds. With roundabouts, these types of potentially serious crashes are essentially eliminated because vehicles travel in the same direction and at low speeds.

The vehicle-to-vehicle conflicts that do occur at roundabouts generally involve a vehicle merging into the circular roadway. In the case of multilane roundabouts, conflicts may also occur as vehicles exit.

Studies of intersections in the United States converted from traffic signals or stop signs to roundabouts have found reductions in injury crashes of 72%-80% and reductions in all crashes of 35%-47% (Retting et al., 2001; Eisenman et al., 2004; Rodegerdts et al., 2007).
A study of 19 higher-speed rural intersections (speed limits of 40 mph or higher) that originally had stop signs on the minor approaches and were converted to roundabouts found a 62% reduction in all crashes and an 85% reduction in injury crashes (Isebrands & Hallmark, 2012).
Studies of intersections in Europe and Australia that were converted to roundabouts have reported 25%-87% reductions in injury crashes and 36%-61% reductions in all crashes (Rodegerdts et al., 2010).
Based on the results of a 2004 study (Eisenman et al., 2004), it’s estimated that the conversion of 10% of the signalized intersections in the United States to roundabouts would have prevented approximately 51,000 crashes in 2018, including 231 fatal crashes and about 34,000 crashes involving injuries.
Most U.S. studies have focused primarily on single-lane roundabouts. When included, two-lane roundabouts have been associated with smaller reductions in crashes compared with single-lane roundabouts (Retting et al., 2001; Eisenman et al., 2004; Rodegerdts et al., 2007) or with increases in crashes (Isebrands & Hallmark, 2012; Wang & Cicchino, 2022).

A 2019 IIHS study, however, showed that the safety of two-lane roundabouts improves over time, as drivers become more familiar with them (Hu & Cicchino, 2019). The researchers looked at roundabouts built in Washington state between 2009 and 2015. They found that crashes at two-lane roundabouts decreased an average of 9% a year. At the same time, the odds that a crash at a two-lane roundabout involved an evident or incapacitating injury decreased by nearly one-third annually.

In addition to having fewer serious conflicts between vehicles than traditional intersections, roundabouts are generally safer for pedestrians as well. In a roundabout, pedestrians walk on sidewalks around the perimeter of the circular roadway. If they need to cross the roadway, they cross only one direction of traffic at a time. In addition, crossing distances are relatively short, and vehicle speeds tend to be low.

Studies in Europe indicate that, on average, converting conventional intersections to roundabouts can reduce pedestrian crashes by about 75% (Brilon et al., 1993; Schoon & van Minnen, 1994). Single-lane roundabouts, in particular, have been reported to involve substantially lower pedestrian crash rates than comparable intersections with traffic signals (Brude & Larsson, 2000).

Crossing at multi-lane roundabouts can be more difficult for pedestrians than crossing at single-lane roundabouts. A study found that motorists failed to yield to pedestrians 2-3 times more at multi-lane roundabouts than at single-lane roundabouts (Rodegerdts et al., 2007). Another study found that drivers exiting a roundabout were less likely to yield to pedestrians than drivers entering a roundabout (Hourdos et al., 2012).

Last edited by BlackDog204; Jul 6, 2024 at 6:22 AM.
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  #2475  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2024, 10:39 AM
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I think of all the small rural two lane highways that could have these roundabouts making highways safer for everyone. But why do that when you can put up a four way stop sign or a set lights in the middle of nowhere. Manitoba has the worst transportation infrastructure in Canada. It’s embarrassing. No freeways, no rapid transit. And no fucking proper shoulders on over half the highways. They can’t even cut the six foot tall grass and brush in ditches that might prevent some night time animal collisions. The negligence of our governments is pathetic.
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  #2476  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2024, 2:55 PM
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Originally Posted by BlackDog204 View Post


B]Roundabouts are a safer alternative to traffic signals and stop signs[/B]. The tight circle of a roundabout forces drivers to slow down, and the most severe types of intersection crashes — right-angle, left-turn and head-on collisions — are unlikely.

Roundabouts improve traffic flow and are better for the environment. Research shows that traffic flow improves after traditional intersections are converted to roundabouts. Less idling reduces vehicle emissions and fuel consumption.

Roundabouts generally are safer for pedestrians. Pedestrians walk on sidewalks around the perimeter and cross only one direction of traffic at a time. Crossing distances are relatively short, and traffic speeds are lower than at traditional intersections.

The first modern roundabouts in the United States were constructed in Nevada in 1990. Since then, many more have been built, although the precise number is unknown. Roundabouts are much more common in some other countries, including Australia, the United Kingdom and France.

Although some states and cities have been slow to build roundabouts, they are gaining more popularity in the United States. Roundabouts are one of the evidence-based safety countermeasures recommended by the Federal Highway Administration.

Some states, such as New York and Virginia, have adopted "roundabout first" policies requiring that roundabouts be considered a preferred alternative when building new intersections or upgrading older ones if feasible (New York State Department of Transportation, 2011; Virginia State Department of Transportation, 2009).

Roundabouts are appropriate at many intersections, including high-crash locations and intersections with large traffic delays, complex geometry (more than four approach roads, for example), frequent left-turn movements, and relatively balanced traffic flows. Roundabouts can be constructed along congested arterials and at freeway exits and entrances, in lieu of traffic signals.

Sometimes space constraints or topography make it impossible to build a roundabout. Geometric design details vary from one site to another and must take into account traffic volumes, land use, topography and other factors. Roundabouts often require more space in the immediate vicinity of the intersection than comparable traditional intersections. However, because roundabouts can reduce delays and queue lengths, they require less space on the approaching roads than comparable intersections controlled by stop signs or traffic signals.

An intersection with highly unbalanced traffic flows (that is, a very high traffic volume on the main street and very light traffic on the side street) may not be an ideal candidate for a roundabout. The same is true for isolated intersections in a network of traffic signals.

While the initial construction cost of a roundabout varies site by site, its maintenance usually is cheaper than for intersections with signals. The service life of a roundabout is significantly longer, approximately 25 years, compared with 10 years for a typical traffic signal (Rodegerdts et al., 2010).
At traditional intersections with stop signs or traffic signals, some of the most common types of crashes are right-angle, left-turn, and head-on collisions. These types of collisions can be severe because vehicles may be traveling through the intersection at high speeds. With roundabouts, these types of potentially serious crashes are essentially eliminated because vehicles travel in the same direction and at low speeds.

The vehicle-to-vehicle conflicts that do occur at roundabouts generally involve a vehicle merging into the circular roadway. In the case of multilane roundabouts, conflicts may also occur as vehicles exit.

Studies of intersections in the United States converted from traffic signals or stop signs to roundabouts have found reductions in injury crashes of 72%-80% and reductions in all crashes of 35%-47% (Retting et al., 2001; Eisenman et al., 2004; Rodegerdts et al., 2007).
A study of 19 higher-speed rural intersections (speed limits of 40 mph or higher) that originally had stop signs on the minor approaches and were converted to roundabouts found a 62% reduction in all crashes and an 85% reduction in injury crashes (Isebrands & Hallmark, 2012).
Studies of intersections in Europe and Australia that were converted to roundabouts have reported 25%-87% reductions in injury crashes and 36%-61% reductions in all crashes (Rodegerdts et al., 2010).
Based on the results of a 2004 study (Eisenman et al., 2004), it’s estimated that the conversion of 10% of the signalized intersections in the United States to roundabouts would have prevented approximately 51,000 crashes in 2018, including 231 fatal crashes and about 34,000 crashes involving injuries.
Most U.S. studies have focused primarily on single-lane roundabouts. When included, two-lane roundabouts have been associated with smaller reductions in crashes compared with single-lane roundabouts (Retting et al., 2001; Eisenman et al., 2004; Rodegerdts et al., 2007) or with increases in crashes (Isebrands & Hallmark, 2012; Wang & Cicchino, 2022).

A 2019 IIHS study, however, showed that the safety of two-lane roundabouts improves over time, as drivers become more familiar with them (Hu & Cicchino, 2019). The researchers looked at roundabouts built in Washington state between 2009 and 2015. They found that crashes at two-lane roundabouts decreased an average of 9% a year. At the same time, the odds that a crash at a two-lane roundabout involved an evident or incapacitating injury decreased by nearly one-third annually.

In addition to having fewer serious conflicts between vehicles than traditional intersections, roundabouts are generally safer for pedestrians as well. In a roundabout, pedestrians walk on sidewalks around the perimeter of the circular roadway. If they need to cross the roadway, they cross only one direction of traffic at a time. In addition, crossing distances are relatively short, and vehicle speeds tend to be low.

Studies in Europe indicate that, on average, converting conventional intersections to roundabouts can reduce pedestrian crashes by about 75% (Brilon et al., 1993; Schoon & van Minnen, 1994). Single-lane roundabouts, in particular, have been reported to involve substantially lower pedestrian crash rates than comparable intersections with traffic signals (Brude & Larsson, 2000).

Crossing at multi-lane roundabouts can be more difficult for pedestrians than crossing at single-lane roundabouts. A study found that motorists failed to yield to pedestrians 2-3 times more at multi-lane roundabouts than at single-lane roundabouts (Rodegerdts et al., 2007). Another study found that drivers exiting a roundabout were less likely to yield to pedestrians than drivers entering a roundabout (Hourdos et al., 2012).
207 and Garven Road (223) have a roundabout, it certainly made traffic flow nicer and the intersection much safer.
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  #2477  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2024, 2:57 PM
FactaNV FactaNV is offline
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Originally Posted by Hecate View Post
I think of all the small rural two lane highways that could have these roundabouts making highways safer for everyone. But why do that when you can put up a four way stop sign or a set lights in the middle of nowhere. Manitoba has the worst transportation infrastructure in Canada. It’s embarrassing. No freeways, no rapid transit. And no fucking proper shoulders on over half the highways. They can’t even cut the six foot tall grass and brush in ditches that might prevent some night time animal collisions. The negligence of our governments is pathetic.
Rapid transit I agree, shoulders I agree, but what tangible benefit would a freeway provide? Spend billions to save a minute or two and to be saddled with an urban 8 lane highway we need to maintain forever.
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  #2478  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2024, 3:58 PM
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-Freeways save lives
-They save far more than "a minute or 2".

I think we're talking about rural interstate freeways here, not urban as much. A grade separated TCH. Since Carberry's roundabout started this topic.

Winnipeg to Brandon is 214km, or about 2h at the current agonizingly slow speed of 110km/h.

This is one of the flattest and straightest stretches of roads in the world, and Canada is the 2nd largest land mass in the world.

A properly grade-separated freeway should have a speed limit in the realm of 150km/h to 180km/h during good weather (90% of reality). Or no limit at all.

That shaves 30-45 minutes off Winnipeg to Brandon alone. And before you guys get all "omg you're a lunatic, that's too high of a speed!" No it's not. Here are max rural freeway speed limits around the world. And they're all smaller countries with more topography than Canada's prairies (except for maybe the desert).

No Limit - Germany
160km/h - UAE
150km/h - Czech Republic
140km/h - Turkey
140km/h - Kazakhstan
140km/h - Saudi Arabia
140km/h - Poland
140km/h - Bulgaria

And there's 20 other countries that max out at 130km/h. We're an egregious outlier at 110km/h and still 100km/h on some dual carriageways. Stone age country.

Properly built roads allow faster speeds, which saves immense time, which "shrinks" the country. And roundabouts play no part in that.
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  #2479  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2024, 4:58 PM
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Originally Posted by bodaggin View Post
-Freeways save lives
-They save far more than "a minute or 2".

I think we're talking about rural interstate freeways here, not urban as much. A grade separated TCH. Since Carberry's roundabout started this topic.

Winnipeg to Brandon is 214km, or about 2h at the current agonizingly slow speed of 110km/h.

This is one of the flattest and straightest stretches of roads in the world, and Canada is the 2nd largest land mass in the world.

A properly grade-separated freeway should have a speed limit in the realm of 150km/h to 180km/h during good weather (90% of reality). Or no limit at all.

That shaves 30-45 minutes off Winnipeg to Brandon alone. And before you guys get all "omg you're a lunatic, that's too high of a speed!" No it's not. Here are max rural freeway speed limits around the world. And they're all smaller countries with more topography than Canada's prairies (except for maybe the desert).

No Limit - Germany
160km/h - UAE
150km/h - Czech Republic
140km/h - Turkey
140km/h - Kazakhstan
140km/h - Saudi Arabia
140km/h - Poland
140km/h - Bulgaria

And there's 20 other countries that max out at 130km/h. We're an egregious outlier at 110km/h and still 100km/h on some dual carriageways. Stone age country.

Properly built roads allow faster speeds, which saves immense time, which "shrinks" the country. And roundabouts play no part in that.
Stone age or spread out country?

All those countries you listed have population densities that allow for high quality freeways to be built and maintained at a high standard. Even in the US their rural interstates look similar to many stretches of poor highway in Manitoba/Sask other than the grade separations.

Any video you see of the Autobahn or high speed european freeways, the roadway is smooth and perfect. They have monitoring systems to track traffic and overhead signage to warn of unexpected hazards. They have 3+ lanes to account for semi trucks and the inevitable idiot that passes at only 0.5 km/h faster than the semi. And you would need at least three lanes for those speeds because semis will typically not travel too much faster than 120kmh before fuel economy becomes an a problem.

We simply don't have the money from our low population density to do such a mass scale upgrade across the country beyond the current snail pace without sacrificing immense sums of money from other departments.

Making the TCH a freeway could allow for rural speeds of 120 kmh like you see in the states. You'd probably have to drastically increase safety similar to the safety measures of the Autobahn before any speed limit is increased beyond that.

And aside from the drive feeling less painfully slow through the prairies, what tangible benefits would the economy/quality of life see from spending untold sums of money to be able to drive faster? Is there truly a benefit to those countries that have faster speed limits that surpasses the US/Canada's rural highways speeds?

Most business travel currently flies to other cities rather than drive, semis transporting goods will likely cap out at 120 (and may have an imposed max speed limit that is lower than car traffic like in Europe) so the time savings on that will not drastically alter the transportation world. I guess you shave some time driving to Alberta on family vacation. That's certainly what I want to spend multiple billions of dollars on /s.
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  #2480  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2024, 5:20 PM
bodaggin bodaggin is online now
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Stone age or spread out country?

All those countries you listed have population densities that allow for high quality freeways to be built and maintained at a high standard. Even in the US their rural interstates look similar to many stretches of poor highway in Manitoba/Sask other than the grade separations.

Some of those points were contradictory. A large, spread out land mass IS the argument for higher limits. Speed shrinks the country. The bigger the country, high limits need to be (or not exist at all).

USA's Interstates could easily be increased to 150km/h with zero improvements. Grade separation is the main safety factor and interstates are already grade separated. They're plenty well built.

So we're really only talking about grade separation here, something that needs to occur already anyway. Grade separation obviously improves safety.

The time savings of higher limits via grade separation trickle through the economy:

-Service companies (telecom, hydro, plumbing, etc) get more productive because they can complete more calls in less time.
-House prices drop, because larger catchment areas can access the city.
-Health improves because existing commutes shorten, literally giving extra time in the day.
-Police actually do useful things, instead of sitting collecting speed tax all day.

The cost is overstated too. We've been thru this in this board. Average rural 2-lane overpass should cost no more than $20m when managed properly. About 100 are needed to grade separate TCH from SK to ON. That's $2B total. At 10/yr (aggressive) that's $200m/yr, or less than 1% of MB Gov's total annual budget, and that doesn't account any Federal money.
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