Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

On the contrary, I actually expect a pretty hard turn to "anti-woke" under Pollievre, to distract the public from his inevitable failure to fix the economic issues. Much like JT used being "woke" as a distraction from his failures.

On most issues, public opinion is now leaning to the "anti-woke" position. It's an easy win for PP, unlike housing or the economy or public finances.

They might claw back on stuff like gender identity and the Canadian incarnations of CRT, but I'd expect no change in terms of immigration, multiculturalism and diversity. All of which has come to have a significant dogmatic woke component.

Pro-Hamas marches with anti-semitic chants won't go away under a Poilievre government, for example.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

.... but I'd expect no change in terms of immigration, multiculturalism and diversity. All of which has come to have a significant dogmatic woke component.

Exactly why I expect a Tory government to go to war with those issues. Costs very little. And locks down a larger base, especially if their economic policy is milquetoast.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Pro-Hamas marches with anti-semitic chants won't go away under a Poilievre government, for example.

Well yeah. We're not getting rid of free speech here. But I do expect to see way more pressure on universities to crack down, with threats to withhold funding.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Exactly why I expect a Tory government to go to war with those issues. Costs very little. And locks down a larger base, especially if their economic policy is milquetoast.



Well yeah. We're not getting rid of free speech here. But I do expect to see way more pressure on univariate to crack down, with threats to withhold funding.

These marches are often severely testing the limits of acceptable free speech.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by Acajack

These marches are often severely testing the limits of acceptable free speech.

What do you think should be done that you suspect the CPC wont do?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by theman23

What do you think should be done that you suspect the CPC wont do?

How many people have been arrested for or charged with hate speech at these marches since Oct. 7? All across Canada?

[theman23]

Originally Posted by Acajack

How many people have been arrested for or charged with hate speech at these marches since Oct. 7? All across Canada?

That’s a question, not an answer.

And I don’t know.

[1overcosc]

The pro-Hamas rallies make me sick to my stomach, but freedom of speech is freedom of speech. It's moments like this where freedom of speech actually means something.

[dleung]

I haven't heard of widespread pro-Hamas rallies, unless you guys are referring to pro-Palestinian protests??

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

These marches are often severely testing the limits of acceptable free speech.

Agreed but how Conservatives react will be very interesting. Do they take up the mantle of the newly acceptable powers the Liberals used to smash the Convoy? We can expect massive protests when the Cons cut funding to for example Indigenous groups. I suspect they will use those powers.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

The pro-Hamas rallies make me sick to my stomach, but freedom of speech is freedom of speech. It's moments like this where freedom of speech actually means something.

Legally speaking, freedom of speech in Canada is subject to a "hate speech" limiter, something which does not really exist to any comparable degree in the US.

While few people are picking up on it, what we are seeing in Canada is a gradual shift in community standards towards a more American view of free speech.

It is technically "free-er" I suppose, but it probably doesn't lead us to a more civilized harmonious society.

As any glance across the border will reveal.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by theman23

That’s a question, not an answer.

And I don’t know.

Sorry for answering with a question again, but are we acknowledging that our federal government is powerless to prevent hate and intimidation against an identifiable group from taking over the streets of our cities? (And if so, why does the federal government even exist?)

I don't think I need to present a detailed action plan for a hypothetical Conservative government (assuming that's even what I want) to deplore the lame inaction of our authorities at all levels on this. (In fact, without being a Liberal partisan, I'd much rather see them demonstrate tougher leadership on this.)

[New Brisavoine]

Main page of Le Devoir tonight. French or Canadian newspaper?

[New Brisavoine]

By the way, in the North America constituency the Macron candidate won, but it wasn't thanks to Montréal. It's mostly because of NYC, Boston, and Silicon Valley that he won.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by dleung

I haven't heard of widespread pro-Hamas rallies, unless you guys are referring to pro-Palestinian protests??

It's an insane proposition to paint supporting the liberation of Palestinians (in their own homeland) from a century of Israeli colonial oppression as hate speech.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

It's an insane proposition to paint supporting the liberation of Palestinians (in their own homeland) from a century of Israeli colonial oppression as hate speech.

You haven't been following events in recent months it seems...

In France the far-left, who won the elections tonight (albeit with a relative majority) called Israel "a genocidal state". Mélenchon, the leader of the far-left, appeared on the evening of the 1st round of the elections last week in front of national television side by side with a woman promoted by his party to become Member of the European Parliament who said that the Israeli army raped Palestinian women with dogs (check it online if you don't believe it).

The level of antisemitism displayed by the pro-Gaza, pro-Palestine supporters is beyond anything that could have been imagined before October 2023. To the point that some far-left vigilantes have attacked Jewish people in Paris in recent weeks.

The scenes that were posted in this thread last winter in some Anglophone universities in Montréal were also shocking, with Jewish students being hounded and shouted at by activists displaying Palestinian flags. Absolutely despicable and shameful.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

You haven't been following events in recent months it seems...

In France the far-left, who won the elections tonight (albeit with a relative majority) called Israel "a genocidal state". Mélenchon, the leader of the far-left, appeared on the evening of the 1st round of the elections last week in front of national television side by side with a woman promoted by his party to become Member of the European Parliament who said that the Israeli army raped Palestinian women with dogs (check it online if you don't believe it).

The level of antisemitism displayed by the pro-Gaza, pro-Palestine supporters is beyond anything that could have been imagined before October 2023. To the point that some far-left vigilantes have attacked Jewish people in Paris in recent weeks.

The scenes that were posted in this thread last winter in some Anglophone universities in Montréal were also shocking, with Jewish students being hounded and shouted at by activists displaying Palestinian flags. Absolutely despicable and shameful.

You’re cherry-picking reality for your own ends. Israel is a genocidal state and that is far more important than how protestors may or may not behave, on both sides frankly. Choosing to not hold Israel accountable is inhumane and reprehensible.

Public support of Israel has dropped in France and Canada because of Israel’s actions. That is a just consequence, not anti-semitism.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

It's an insane proposition to paint supporting the liberation of Palestinians (in their own homeland) from a century of Israeli colonial oppression as hate speech.

As with anything, depends on what's exactly being said. Supporting Palestinian independence is obviously not hate speech. But genocidal chants against Jewish people such as "river to the sea" or "globalize the intifada" are definitely hate speech and those lines are frequently heard at pro-Palestine rallies. In a lot of cases as well, the people organizing pro-Palestinian protests have genocidal attitudes towards Jews, supporting the destruction of the State of Israel and justifying October 7th. Now obviously - a big number - probably a sizeable majority, even - of the people participating in the rallies are just angry about the death toll in Gaza and just want peace (this is certainly naive and misdirected, but it's not hate speech). It's much like the Freedom Convoy - while most of the participants of that event had a politically reasonable position (simply opposing covid restrictions), the organizers had much darker motivations, and teasing apart which people there are hate-filled radicals and which people are simply political protestors is a difficult task.

Edit: To add, as well, the phrase of "a century of Israeli colonial oppression" is itself a bit suspect on your part. Israel has only been occupying the Palestinian territories for 57 years, much shorter than a "century". Saying a "century" suggests you consider Israel's very existence to be "oppression", which, well.. that's anti-Semitic. Jews have a right to self-determination in their indigenous homeland, and Israel has the right to exist, like all other countries on this planet. (So do Palestinians.. hence the need for a peace process).

[1overcosc]

On the topic of France, it's a relief that the far-right didn't win, but concerning that the far-left did so well. I guess the French don't have much of a choice - it's either a much-hated incumbent, the far-right, or the far-left (gee... and we complain our choices are bad!). All that said, the far-right is not going to meaningfully go away if nobody bothers to address the root causes of why they are popular. Same with the far-left. The centre needs to understand that this is a repudiation of their complete failure to deal with the issues.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Public support of Israel has dropped in France and Canada because of Israel’s actions. That is a just consequence, not anti-semitism.

Not really. It's just that the pro-Palestine protestors have been extremely loud. They don't actually come close to reflecting public opinion. Most people don't care about foreign conflicts. In fact, I think the opposite has happened - the mainstream is irritated/concerned about the protests to the point where they've become modestly pro-Israel as a reaction. Case in point - that Leger poll in Canada that found that Canadians overwhelmingly disapprove of the university encampments. Notice that in the UK election, where Labour moved to a moderately pro-Israel position despite the angry screams of the hard left, this had no real electoral consequences for them outside of a few predominantly Muslim ridings. I think this is part of why the protests are becoming increasingly unhinged, they're upset that society isn't just immediately bandwagoning onto their position the way society did for every other cultural-left cause de jour these last few years (while simultaneously convincing themselves that the general public supports them - doublethink is one hell of a drug...)

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Not really. It's just that the pro-Palestine protestors have been extremely loud. They don't actually come close to reflecting public opinion. Most people don't care about foreign conflicts. In fact, I think the opposite has happened - the mainstream is irritated/concerned about the protests to the point where they've become modestly pro-Israel as a reaction. Case in point - that Leger poll in Canada that found that Canadians overwhelmingly disapprove of the university encampments. Notice that in the UK election, where Labour moved to a moderately pro-Israel position despite the angry screams of the hard left, this had no real electoral consequences for them outside of a few predominantly Muslim ridings. I think this is part of why the protests are becoming increasingly unhinged, they're upset that society isn't just immediately bandwagoning onto their position the way society did for every other cultural-left cause de jour these last few years (while simultaneously convincing themselves that the general public supports them - doublethink is one hell of a drug...)

Look at public opinion polls on Israel.