[Burnaby] Metropolis at Metrotown Redevelopment (Downtown Burnaby)

[Migrant_Coconut]

Depends on the execution - if a bunch of Yaletown streets and a "lamer" mall with no food court/Cineplex and less big box/department stores ends up chasing away mall regulars to somewhere else (and not enough new residents take their place), they definitely won't get bumped down to 50th, but they could easily lose their Top 10 spot.

Originally Posted by jollyburger

#20 is next?

Guildford's down from their pre-pandemic #18. Maybe they're losing foot traffic like Lansdowne?

[jollyburger]

Duplicate.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by Spr0ckets

This is actually an important point.

Their overall gross revenue generated might potentially go down if they end up losing some retail tenants - either through the loss of leasable tenant space to exterior streets, or just tenants leaving during construction and not coming back.

However, their revenue generated per square foot is likely to go up since their overall effective square footage will go down from the breakup of the mall.

Upon full build out, you would have 20 000 people living within the 35 acre footprint of Metrotown Mall. That's the equivalent of 400 000 people per sq mile. Even at half build out, the numbers are still huge. That is an incredibly dense population of people that have your store right at their doorstep. Sounds very much like formula for success.

(Assuming the retail industry isn't altered by technological advances).

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Depends on the execution - if a bunch of Yaletown streets and a "lamer" mall with no food court/Cineplex and less big box/department stores ends up chasing away mall regulars to somewhere else (and not enough new residents take their place), they definitely won't get bumped down to 50th, but they could easily lose their Top 10 spot.

I guess it depends on who are their most productive tenants on a square foot basis.. Or if the demographics of their customers change.

I wonder if the food court makes more money for the mall than say having a "restaurant row" like Station Square?

Concord Metrotown might be interesting to watch to see what kind of retail/restaurant tenants they can line up..

From March 2023 in Retail Insider Head of Ivanhoe's Retail

“It used to be pure retail, sell to the consumer. We have now a much larger wholistic view of these assets. Not only do we try to activate them on a 24/7 basis. These are massive pieces of real estate. They cannot just be open 9 to 5. Hopefully we can find some great value creative solutions to make profit outside of these hours. We need to make the link between the digital to the presence of stores and we need to look at these assets as a large piece of real estate,” added Bourgon.

“In many of these instances, we will be focusing on densification and adding some other uses to the centre such as residence and even logistics, we’re exploring logistics in some instances, so that these pieces of land are not only the places to shop but they become a place to work and shop eventually. That’s our home for some of these strategic malls in the portfolio.”

https://retail-insider.com/retail-inside...dings-and-expanded-tenant-mix-interview/

[Migrant_Coconut]

The food court generates more foot traffic (at least on the surface). I suppose Ivanhoe might want to shoo out all the teenagers and make something more "upscale?"

“It used to be pure retail, sell to the consumer. We have now a much larger wholistic view of these assets. Not only do we try to activate them on a 24/7 basis. These are massive pieces of real estate. They cannot just be open 9 to 5. Hopefully we can find some great value creative solutions to make profit outside of these hours. We need to make the link between the digital to the presence of stores and we need to look at these assets as a large piece of real estate,” added Bourgon.

“In many of these instances, we will be focusing on densification and adding some other uses to the centre such as residence and even logistics, we’re exploring logistics in some instances, so that these pieces of land are not only the places to shop but they become a place to work and shop eventually. That’s our home for some of these strategic malls in the portfolio.”

Makes sense - many American malls are trying out offices, amenities and civic space.

Except Metrotown can't attract offices, already has a library and movie theatre, and won't get a new city hall. Don't think Burnaby needs that many more fitness centres either.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

There's Arbutus Mall and (soon to be) Lansdowne... both of which were/are already on the ropes. You're right - completely replacing it with a street grid is usually a last resort for a struggling mall, not the first pick for the ninth most profitable in Canada.

Don't forget Champlain Mall -> Champlain Heights.

... and lets not forget that some retailers have had a hard time finding large format spaces in a downtown grid setting,
and even Robson St. has empty retail storefronts.

While Brentwood isn't a seriously close example, seeing what tenants occupy the podiums of the condo towers there
(the ones on the periphery, like the shuttered Basil Box) could provide some insight into who might take space in podiums at Metrotown. Brentwood has permeability from the arterial streets into its site and the most recent changes suggest even more corridors across what is now the mall.

PS - WRT Oakridge, the way it played out is a bit unfortunate.
The approved built form (with towers around the periphery and massive street walls) was largely a result of keeping the existing mall in place with a phased development.
However, with Covid, the phasing plan was thrown out and the whole site was demolished which, in theory, could have allowed
the replotting of the site into smaller blocks (but wasn't going to happen because it would require going back to square one).
So we are still left with a megablock that may be hard to cut across (although the main mall corridor is supposed to be open extended hours?)

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Depends on the execution - if a bunch of Yaletown streets and a "lamer" mall with no food court/Cineplex and less big box/department stores ends up chasing away mall regulars to somewhere else (and not enough new residents take their place), they definitely won't get bumped down to 50th, but they could easily lose their Top 10 spot.



Guildford's down from their pre-pandemic #18. Maybe they're losing foot traffic like Lansdowne?

I was thinking about this today, Guildford pre-covid used to be open until 9 pm 6 days a week and is now only open till 7 pm, and 9 pm on Friday and Saturdays only. I assume many potential customers, such as myself, have a long commute and the hours are just useless or it feels too rushed to enjoy. The Bay inside the mall also often closes much earlier than the rest of the mall so they lose that anchor.

There also isn't much supportive retail in the area, no other big box stores like Winners or Marshalls to make the area a good shopping zone.

Did Richmond also cut its hours? I thought it was also open till 9 pm most nights.

Metropolis is back to being the only mall for longer shopping hours.

[Spr0ckets]

Originally Posted by logan5

Upon full build out, you would have 20 000 people living within the 35 acre footprint of Metrotown Mall. That's the equivalent of 400 000 people per sq mile. Even at half build out, the numbers are still huge. That is an incredibly dense population of people that have your store right at their doorstep. Sounds very much like formula for success.

(Assuming the retail industry isn't altered by technological advances).

Yeah, let's not forget that full build out is scheduled for about 50-60 years from now (or about 30-40 years from the scheduled start of the first major phase on the 2050's when most of the major tenant anchor leases expire).

I doubt very much that the retail industry or shopping habits remain the same for that long without much changes or getting affected in a major way by technological (IT) advancements.

It's also worth noting that today, a considerably large portion of the mall's visitors and shoppers are non-locals (i.e. people from farther out in the region either coming for some casual shopping or passing through on their way home or to work via transit with the mall a stop on the way.


For most locals the novelty of visiting the mall or just "hanging out" wears out pretty quickly and it mainly becomes a quick 'stop-shop-and-leave-immediately' for odds-and-ends, situation.

So if your redevelopment is hanging on the long-time and frequent visitation by people who live in the towers above it, then that's likely not a formula for sustained success, I wouldn't imagine.

The big key to it succeeding is, does it remain a shopping destination trip from people who may not live close by but who might consider it worth the trip?
That's certainly what makes it as successful as it is today as that's what comprises those crowds you see there on evenings and most weekends.

[jollyburger]

So all those new residential towers surrounding Metrotown suddenly are negatives for Metrotown because they are just going to stop in to buy toilet paper and leave?

[Migrant_Coconut]

The point is that it depends on how many new residents will become new regular customers, and how many old regulars go somewhere else. With a regional mall (as opposed to a small local one), it's a little more complicated than just "twice the population, twice the customers" - Central Burnaby is really still not enough of a downtown for Metrotown to be emulating Robson or Yaletown.

[Spr0ckets]

^^^^ What he said.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Like you, I have no idea how many business owners there are associated with the mall, but there are only 353 stores, banks, services and restaurants in the mall. And there's no reason why the majority shouldn't be able to operate at Metrotown once it has been redeveloped.

The mall also supports hundreds of other businesses around it, including neighbouring malls and shopping centres.

Majority will be driven out of Metropolis if the mall is gone. They most likely won't relocate to a streetside retail space. Lots of Fast food, dental, bubble tea, banking and nail salon businesses will replace them instead.

One solution, if they were to get rid of the current Metropolis mall, is to replace it with a couple of multi-storey malls (4+ floors) on the divided lots linked to other buildings with an underground mall or overhead just like PC or the Core (Calgary). The area will be a goner if there are only human-scale retail along the new streets.

[MIPS]

For most locals the novelty of visiting the mall or just "hanging out" wears out pretty quickly and it mainly becomes a quick 'stop-shop-and-leave-immediately' for odds-and-ends, situation.

I thought that died out in the early 2000's? I and others have been unable to just lounge around a mall for an afternoon because eventually all you are doing is just looking at clothing.

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by MIPS

I thought that died out in the early 2000's? I and others have been unable to just lounge around a mall for an afternoon because eventually all you are doing is just looking at clothing.

It would be interesting to see if there is any data/research on the makeup of Metrotown mall visitors beyond annual visitors/sales PSF. Personally I thought it is as strong or if not stronger with people who use some shopping malls as that place to waste time and walk around with minimal shopping.

If you change the mall there are odds of it failing and not failing. Ivanhoe probably has the most data on what is the most productive parts of the mall so they would probably cater the redevelopment to try and keep the core intact. You (not MIPS) guys say it can't be done but come back in 30 years and we can see who was right.

[Spr0ckets]

Originally Posted by MIPS

I thought that died out in the early 2000's? I and others have been unable to just lounge around a mall for an afternoon because eventually all you are doing is just looking at clothing.

Admittedly, it's primarily a "teen" thing to do (....to go to the mall to hang out with friends), but teenagers still do that to this day so it's not just something that died with our respective youths.

On the one hand teenagers do not have the spending power that their parents might have, but on the other hand teenagers and young people in general tend to be impulsive buyers, which is the exact kind of shopper and spender that retailers love to have around.

But to be fair I have also seen families (again,...admittedly younger families with young kids) who take the brood to the mall to spend the day on weekends and not just specifically for purposeful shopping.
Metrotown mall usually does a good job of organizing family and kid-friendly events in the plazas, and anything that can keep the kids entertained or occupied for a couple of hours within a parent's eyeshot is a win-win for most parents.

As jollyburger intimated above, it's not a bad place to take the fam to go "waste time" as it were, or get away from the house.

A good case study comparison would be to compare how the foot traffic numbers for Toys R' Us changed when they relocated from their old location at the mall underneath the old Sears location (admittedly not a great visibility spot) to where they currently are now at Station Square (if people even know that that's where they relocated to).

It's exactly the kind of store that would attract families to the mall given their merchandise, and their new street-facing location is an excellent case of what life will be like for a lot of retail tenants having to draw business in on their brand visibility from the street rather than (also) getting some mall foot traffice passing by - in a future of a broken up mall with street-facing retail.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by Spr0ckets

A good case study comparison would be to compare how the foot traffic numbers for Toys R' Us changed when they relocated from their old location at the mall underneath the old Sears location (admittedly not a great visibility spot) to where they currently are now at Station Square (if people even know that that's where they relocated to).

News to me!
But I don't buy toys.

[Spr0ckets]

Originally Posted by officedweller

News to me!
But I don't buy toys.

Most people (including myself) thought the mall store location was closed down permanently thanks in part to COVID, and also the impending Concord Metrotown redevelopment of their old location, but apparently as I discovered recently, they took over the old Bed, Bath & Beyond location at Station Square above Structube and the Rexall drug store, and opposite the Best Buys.

I haven't had to buy toys in a while either, so it was news to me too.

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by officedweller

News to me!
But I don't buy toys.

I don't think they've relocated yet? It stills show them as open on Google Maps and on the Metropolis website.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

I don't think they've relocated yet? It stills show them as open on Google Maps and on the Metropolis website.

The company website shows two stores in Burnaby, one at Metropolis at Metrotown, and one at Station Square.

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by MIPS

I thought that died out in the early 2000's? I and others have been unable to just lounge around a mall for an afternoon because eventually all you are doing is just looking at clothing.

you should visit Lougheed Mall, they cannot add enough benches and tables lol, and they are always very busy and well used. Mainly seniors or immigrants hang out there and kids too, they have added outdoor seating now as well.

Metropolis will most likely remain as it is for our lifetimes, I can't imagine it being demolished in the next few years and who knows what shopping will be like in 40 years. Malls are definately becoming places to just hnag out, I watch a lot of mall tour videos and Manila and Bangkok have some amazing new malls and they all incorporate lots of public spaces with gardens, seating and roof top areas etc. where people just go to hang out.