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  #4441  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2024, 6:55 PM
Crawford Crawford is online now
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Originally Posted by Gantz View Post
Even with congestion revenue MTA would be broke. Their major issue is costs, not revenue side.
They got billions of dollars during COVID and they pissed it all away with nothing to show for it.
Remember, congestion pricing was projected to bring about $1 billion a year, or 5% of MTA current operating budget in revenue. Those are not some Earth-shattering funds. In 10 years, that would be enough to fix a staircase, maaaybe.
This is all bullshit.

-The MTA, at this moment, has the highest credit rating in its history. It has been judged an strong steward of public dollars. You might not agree, but that's the official word per the ratings agencies. It has the best rider-per-dollar ratio of any major U.S. transit agency, BTW.

-COVID funding was essential to keeping the system running. Without COVID funding and with ridership revenue near zero, the system would have been cut to the bone. An agency with fixed salary/benefits costs cannot survive when 40% of revenue vanishes.

-Congestion pricing would bring in $15 billion, to start. It was bonded for $15 billion. So "pausing" the start immediately eliminates $15 billion from the budget. That will be enough to eliminate every single expansion project, all the essential track upgrades as well as almost all the (court-mandated) accessibility improvements.
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  #4442  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2024, 9:59 PM
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Nouvellecosse Nouvellecosse is offline
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Originally Posted by Gantz View Post
That is what I said before. Congestion charge is nothing more than the failure of infrastructure. You are basically artificially forcing people not to do the trips. You can make driving in Manhattan cost $1M per mile! I am sure then you'd get nice and empty streets. Better yet, just blow up the bridges into the island altogether. I am sure that would get rid of cars.
Sure, it's a failure of infrastructure in the sense that if we built it with the hope of eliminating congestion, it will fail because it isn't capable of doing what we're asking of it.
Because it simply isn't feasible to build enough infrastructure in a major city to eliminate congestion. That's why there's congestion in every major city without a congestion charge regardless of how much or little infrastructure they have. So there will always be congestion whether the infrastructure is excellent, passable or poor. That's the part that just doesn't seem to sink in with some people.

The road infrastructure of a city will experience congestion if traffic volumes exceed 100% of capacity. So if you go to 105% it gets congested, things slow down, and no more vehicles can fit on the roads. Lots more people would like to use the roads if they could but can't due to the time and hassle of dealing with traffic. But the desire for road space, depending on the city, can be 200%, 400%, 600% or whatever meaning you'd need the capacity to double, quadruple or more. That is, until population growth and lifestyle changes induce more demand. And adding that much road infrastructure in a dense urban environment is just too expensive to be feasible. That's why cities that have tried such as Houston and LA still have congestion. The source of their demand isn't what's relevant. What matters is the amount of demand and how much is feasible to supply.

Yet people act like, "Well when we're at 105%, that 5 percentage points is what's causing the congestion so if we build infrastructure to accommodate that, then problem solved. But then they don't realize that the demand is 600% and the only reason the roads are only at 105% capacity is because they can't physically handle more.
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  #4443  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2024, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
There is no "alternative route". The state, in the postwar decades, tried multiple times to build a road & rail crossing from LI to CT. NIMBYs killed it.

The same NIMBYs who don't want to pay for tolls also don't want any new infrastructure built anywhere. You would get laughed out of every North Shore LI town with such a proposal. These are affluent towns that go crazy when someone proposes a 5-unit building, or paints an old building the wrong color.
They sound like a delightful bunch.
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Don't ask people not to debate a topic. Just stop making debatable assertions. Problem solved.
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  #4444  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2024, 3:29 AM
mrnyc mrnyc is offline
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
They sound like a delightful bunch.
if you are wondering and want to know more this is what crawford was mad googling, but won’t post so he can front and act like a know it all —

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Island_Sound_link
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  #4445  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2024, 1:37 PM
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Just for the petty record I already posted that link three pages back. Pay attention people.
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  #4446  
Old Posted Today, 7:34 PM
Gantz Gantz is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
This is all bullshit.

-The MTA, at this moment, has the highest credit rating in its history. It has been judged an strong steward of public dollars. You might not agree, but that's the official word per the ratings agencies. It has the best rider-per-dollar ratio of any major U.S. transit agency, BTW.

-COVID funding was essential to keeping the system running. Without COVID funding and with ridership revenue near zero, the system would have been cut to the bone. An agency with fixed salary/benefits costs cannot survive when 40% of revenue vanishes.

-Congestion pricing would bring in $15 billion, to start. It was bonded for $15 billion. So "pausing" the start immediately eliminates $15 billion from the budget. That will be enough to eliminate every single expansion project, all the essential track upgrades as well as almost all the (court-mandated) accessibility improvements.
How are you going to call all bullshit and then not refute any of my points directly?

1. I don't care about MTA credit rating, its a quasi-government agency. If it was a purely private corp its bonds would've been trading at junk/bankrupt, as it is running at upwards of 50% deficit every year. That says nothing about how it actually spends its dollars or its efficiency. We all know where the money is going and how much various MTA projects cost. We are talking about some of the most expensive track costs per mile in the world, some of the most expensive escalators in the world, some of the most expensive stainless steel staircases in the world, some of the of the most expensive subway elevators in the world, etc. You know our MTA costs better than anyone, I don't have to tell you that.
"It has the best rider-per-dollar ratio of any major U.S. transit agency," - ??? What is the ratio of fares revenue as % of ongoing operating budget? NYC MTA is at 27%. For example, Boston MBTA is at 35%. Vegas and Bay area BART have the best farebox recovery ratios in the US at around 50-ish%. Private systems in Japan have farebox revenues at above 100%, so they are actually profitable on top of providing essential high quality transportation services to the masses.

2. I never said COVID funding was not essential. I said it was all pissed away. Remember subway greeters?

3. Congestion pricing would not bring $15 billion. They were going to borrow $15 billion against the revenue of $1 billion and pay it off over decades. Again, like I said, in the grand scheme of things, it is only about 5% of MTA yearly operating budget. If 5% extra money could magically fix all of the issues, then the MTA would've had that money long time ago. What will happen is MTA just going to "absorb" this new revenue stream overtime and in 10 years they will be back crying about the lack of funds, in other words business as usual. Just to put it in perspective, entire revenue from congestion pricing is less than ongoing MTA yearly operating budget deficit! So in theory, MTA can already absorb all of this revenue just to run business as usual with no upgrades, and still run at a deficit.

Just so we are clear, they are promising to build a 1.7 mile (!) extension for the Q train of rather dubious need for having $15-18 tolls to Manhattan in perpetuity. As a fan of subways, I say it is a bad deal. Not to mention this was supposed to be constructed even before congestion pricing was even thought of. I think there would be less opposition if MTA said that they could construct the entire 2nd avenue line for that money, like any other functional subway agency would given that kind of money.

Last edited by Gantz; Today at 8:14 PM.
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  #4447  
Old Posted Today, 9:22 PM
Crawford Crawford is online now
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^
None of the your three points make any sense. My response to all three would be the same as previously posted.

MTA is, objectively, a reasonably good steward of public $, the pandemic money was critical to the service quality and ridership turnaround, and CP would bring in $15 billion immediately, since it's bonded. You get the whole amount, then pay it back via CP.

The chatter around CP is now that Albany is debating how much (less) to charge. It will likely happen, just at a reduced rate, which is better than nothing, I guess.

Hochul Is Pressed to Resurrect Congestion Pricing With Lower Toll
In conversations, New York legislators have suggested a way to bring back the program, possibly with a toll below $15.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/01/n...ng-hochul.html
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