Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

^ I'd like an answer from a Quebecer. Not from a Frenchman who lives thousands of kilometres away, who thinks his obsession about Muslims translates to Canada.

His answer was spot on, but he was describing the two ends of the spectrum; there’s a whole continuum between them. The more your kids’ cultural and patriotic references will be Indian rather than Canadian, the less well-integrated they’ll be. It’s a zero-sum game. Any mindspace occupied by foreign stuff, means that much less space for domestic stuff. A truly Canadian Canadian, even a dark-skinned one, as Minister of Defense during the Afghanistan evacuation, the thought of prioritizing the Sikhs wouldn’t have EVER come close to his/her mind, for example. It would instead have been 100% Canadian + Canadian Allies’ interests first; that would have been the one and only metric, and natural too, no need to even think about it.

[Acajack]

Very few people in Canada (or at least in Anglo-Canada) would openly agree or even entertain the idea that there are Muslims doing that and that there are complacent people in the left that are innocently enabling it. This is an extremely marginal, radical viewpoint in this country.

Originally Posted by mousquet

Well, what about Muslim bigotry, then? You can't always blame on the same side.
It takes everybody to be "inclusive". If some don't act by the rules, it goes derailed at some point.

Of course the local far right is guilty. But so are the crazy Muslims that want enforce their totalitarian tyranny on everybody, and the leftist freaks that support them just to get their votes and cause some mess all over society.

All extremists are stupid and evil anyway. And everybody knows. Period.

[Acajack]

Yeah well the French right or far right had been looking for their own rallying pop song since the Germans put out Auslander Raus a month ago.

Originally Posted by mousquet

Since Québec has been frequently charged with racism on here, we're seeing a strange phenomenon over here, with the rise of nationalism in polls.
Racist or xenophobic people are no longer scared to publicly state they are so.
They act shameless now, like they're "décomplexés".

See this girl dancing to an AI song explicitly suggesting to deport all Muslims from France.

• Video Link

Excuse us if you think the girl is sexy, eh. That's not my fault.
I'd never seen anything like this in our country.
Needless to say, this is scary.

Actually, the French intelligence is expecting troubles to follow the representative elections, while the Olympics is beginning in a month from now in Paris...

Hopefully, it doesn't go too messy, cause the entire world will be watching.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It's easy to think I'm just being sensitive. But it's heartbreaking to hear my 7 year old have hangups about the colour of their skin. And then to hear that and have to read about the some of complaints about immigration that are clearly coded is well....

I don't happen to think you're "just being sensitive". There is definitely cause for concern. I am concerned too, though obviously not as much as someone who is a visible minority.

We are now seeing and hearing things that haven't been as present in Canada for a very long time.

If we are destined to find ourselves in a mess it will be everyone's fault. Not just one's out-group, as we are tempted to do when playing the blame game.

Not specifically pointing the finger at you but it will be critical that cooler heads prevail - especially the smarter ones.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lio45

His answer was spot on, but he was describing the two ends of the spectrum; there’s a whole continuum between them. The more your kids’ cultural and patriotic references will be Indian rather than Canadian, the less well-integrated they’ll be. It’s a zero-sum game. Any mindspace occupied by foreign stuff, means that much less space for domestic stuff. A truly Canadian Canadian, even a dark-skinned one, as Minister of Defense during the Afghanistan evacuation, the thought of prioritizing the Sikhs wouldn’t have EVER come close to his/her mind, for example. It would instead have been 100% Canadian + Canadian Allies’ interests first; that would have been the one and only metric, and natural too, no need to even think about it.

This is genuinely debatable. Zero chance in the same role, I would have thought of prioritizing people of my ethnicity instead of doing my job. This is where this kind of incident sucks. It shades those of us who would otherwise act honestly. I think his actions come from the Sikh community perpetually placing religion over nationalism. Even in India itself.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This is genuinely debatable. Zero chance in the same role, I would have thought of prioritizing people of my ethnicity instead of doing my job. This is where this kind of incident sucks. It shades those of us who would otherwise act honestly. I think his actions come from the Sikh community perpetually placing religion over nationalism. Even in India itself.

A Minister is first and foremost an MP who is "hired" by his constituents. You were hired by the Canadian Armed Forces. There is a big accountability difference there.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This is genuinely debatable. Zero chance in the same role, I would have thought of prioritizing people of my ethnicity instead of doing my job. This is where this kind of incident sucks. It shades those of us who would otherwise act honestly. I think his actions come from the Sikh community perpetually placing religion over nationalism. Even in India itself.

I don't think we know what level this got to. If the Minister ordered them to go get Sikhs rather than Canadians he's done. If it was simply one of many priorties and just seemed like a distraction to those that didn't see the big picture it's a different story.

Of course Christian politicians have often priroritized their religion. We have many refugees from miniority Christian communities precisely because of this. Though the previous argument was also they were best suited to adapt to Canada.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Perhaps. But I'm curious to know how the views on immigration have evolved given the recent flood of South Asians. Most of whom aren't Muslim.

Or are you suggesting that the immigration debate in Quebec right now is entirely about Muslims not fitting in?

Islamism is one of many issues in the immigration debate in Québec right now.

I'm just saying that the issues related to South Asians in the ROC aren't high on the list in Québec, given that there are way fewer of them here.

And when South Asians do come up, it's more about them not speaking French in service jobs, than about being bogus students or blaming them singularly for the housing crisis.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Islamism is one of many issues in the immigration debate in Québec right now.

I'm just saying that the issues related to South Asians in the ROC aren't high on the list in Québec, given that there are way fewer of them here.

And when South Asians do come up, it's more about them not speaking French in service jobs, than about being bogus students or blaming them singularly for the housing crisis.

But is there not a look over there to Toronto that is our fate if we don't get immigration under control?

The Roxham road migrants is also an issue in Quebec no?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I don't think we know what level this got to. If the Minister ordered them to go get Sikhs rather than Canadians he's done. If it was simply one of many priorties and just seemed like a distraction to those that didn't see the big picture it's a different story.

He's not MND anymore so...

He's also hiding behind the racism card and trying to say that he simply suggested this to the military Chain of Command. Yeah, cause the CDS and operational commanders are going to see "suggestions" from the Minister as optional.

Opposition should be asking whether the PM and Cabinet knew about this "suggestion" or whether he was abusing his power as MND to aide his co-religionists without regard for the national interest.

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Of course Christian politicians have often priroritized their religion. We have many refugees from miniority Christian communities precisely because of this. Though the previous argument was also they were best suited to adapt to Canada.

We can debate the ethics of those choices. But to my knowledge none of those situations meant deprioritizing Canadian citizens or entitled persons.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

But is there not a look over there to Toronto that is our fate if we don't get immigration under control?

The Roxham road migrants is also an issue in Quebec no?

This is my question too. I get the impression the Bill 21 debate has receded in light of more recent issues. But I could be wrong.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You seem to think the US has hang-ups about French and France.

I don't think they really do that much.

No? You already forgot about 'freedom fries'? It's well known that the French are the last nationality it is PC to insult and mock in US media. Any other nationality would lead to tons of lawsuits and outrage.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

But is there not a look over there to Toronto that is our fate if we don't get immigration under control?

The Roxham road migrants is also an issue in Quebec no?

Yes, Toronto is very often cited as a cautionary tale these days but the focus isn't really on South Asians but on immigration in general.

Recent immigration to Quebec is mostly sub-Saharan Africans and Arabs. There are some South Asians of course but they are pretty far down the list.

And yes Roxham Road is a political issue in Quebec but there again it's not primarily South Asians who are crossing illegally.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This is my question too. I get the impression the Bill 21 debate has receded in light of more recent issues. But I could be wrong.

Bill 21 is pretty much a settled issue for its supporters.

As for its detractors they have completely switched their focus to Israel-Gaza. On the pro-Ham... er... Palestinian side.

[niwell]

kool was spot on - this is largely an economic issue rather than a Huntington fantasy. Sure there will be outliers but at the end of the day if immigration coincides with GDP per capita growth and newcomers have the opportunity for a good life alongside the rest of the populace the vast majority of ire will disappear. This is a pretty universal (even if not total) and readily observable trend across the globe, even if it varies in degree by particular country. Regardless of disputes on the latter point, Canada is certainly in this position, which I can attest to based on experiences in my place of work vs the people coming down from Brampton to deliver treats to rich people in my neighbourhood.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Bill 21 is pretty much a settled issue for its supporters.

As for its detractors they have completely switched their focus to Israel-Gaza. On the pro-Ham... er... Palestinian side.

Interesting observation. I wonder if Isreal-Gaza gets the Conservatives to consider supporting Bill 21 or at least its principles. The Muslim vote at least those those that vote on those issues seem lost to the Cons. Is there a path in Quebec for the small c conservatives in Quebec to support a Conservative party promising to be a balwark against these issues?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by niwell

kool was spot on - this is largely an economic issue rather than a Huntington fantasy. Sure there will be outliers but at the end of the day if immigration coincides with GDP per capita growth and newcomers have the opportunity for a good life alongside the rest of the populace the vast majority of ire will disappear. This is a pretty universal (even if not total) and readily observable trend across the globe, even if it varies in degree by particular country. Regardless of disputes on the latter point, Canada is certainly in this position, which I can attest to based on experiences in my place of work vs the people coming down from Brampton to deliver treats to rich people in my neighbourhood.

Quite true, and Canada has done splendidly well on this front due to the good life being reasonably accessible to all and there being enough of it to go around for most everyone to be comfortable with sharing.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Interesting observation. I wonder if Isreal-Gaza gets the Conservatives to consider supporting Bill 21 or at least its principles. The Muslim vote at least those those that vote on those issues seem lost to the Cons. Is there a path in Quebec for the small c conservatives in Quebec to support a Conservative party promising to be a balwark against these issues?

I dunno. We already have the Bloc Québécois which supports Bill 21 unequivocally and unlike the other parties it doesn't have to compromise with people in the ROC on these types of issues.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

No? You already forgot about 'freedom fries'? It's well known that the French are the last nationality it is PC to insult and mock in US media. Any other nationality would lead to tons of lawsuits and outrage.

No, I didn't forget about Freedom Fries. But that was a specific moment in time. Which I fondly remember for Dominique de Villepin's brilliant speech - one of the best I've ever heard.

Like anyone else, Americans have *issues* with a number of countries. They don't have anything especially against France and the French. And just because the New York Times uses Spanish diacritics, doesn't mean the Spanish language doesn't come with a lot of baggage in the US. It does, with a specific (often negative) focus on speakers from Mexico, Cuba and Puerto Rico.

As a French-speaking Canadian, it's actually a bit refreshing to go the US (especially on the coasts) and find that my language actually has a bit of residual prestige there, something which you generally don't get in Canada where French is often seen either as a low-brow language or an unfair imposition.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

No? You already forgot about 'freedom fries'? It's well known that the French are the last nationality it is PC to insult and mock in US media. Any other nationality would lead to tons of lawsuits and outrage.

LOL. That you are still hung up on something from over two decades ago says it all. There are now entire generations of Americans who would have no clue what you're talking about.

This thread is just one giant soapbox for French Boomer insecurities apparently.