Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion II

[chowhou]

Filled it out, I can summarize every question asked:

"Do you like busses?"

• Yes
• No
• Undecided

[Migrant_Coconut]

I get the feeling they just really wanted to show off their new CGI renders.

[jollyburger]

Translink BRT survey

https://translinklistens.ca/bus-rapi...agement-survey

[Sheba]

TransLink announces $90M cost-cutting plan to address funding gap

TransLink has announced cost reductions and revenue-generating measures, totalling $90 million a year, to address what the transit authority says is an imminent funding shortfall.

Metro Vancouver's transit provider says the measures will partially address an annual funding gap of more than $600 million that begins in 2026, after provincial relief funding comes to an end.

Cost-cutting measures include corporate cost reductions and reduced staffing. The plan also identifies opportunities for additional revenue and improving debt management.

It does not include cuts to transit services for customers, TransLink says, but the authority says it's looking at what reductions to service could look like in the future if long-term funding is not secured.

...

TransLink says key cost-cutting initiatives include eliminating 35 unfilled corporate roles. The authority will also reduce spending on third-party contractors, research grants, leadership training courses, and ridership development and community initiatives.

The authority also says it will increase fare evasion enforcement across the system.

TransLink says the new initiatives will start immediately, in an effort to deal with challenges brought on by increasing costs and ongoing expansion projects.

The transit authority also cited declining fuel tax revenue, and fare hikes that are lower than the rate of inflation, as reasons for the cost-cutting measures.

...

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Sheba

TransLink announces $90M cost-cutting plan to address funding gap

As an EV driver myself, I cannot advocate enough for a weight + yearly KM based yearly vehicle fee levied when you renew your insurance.

[officedweller]

When TransLink was created, the original funding formula called for a vehicle levy.
The NDP government of the day (Dosanjh?) balked and refused to pass the levy.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by officedweller

When TransLink was created, the original funding formula called for a vehicle levy.
The NDP government of the day (Dosanjh?) balked and refused to pass the levy.

A fuel tax was probably more fair than a flat vehicle levy back then since, in general, people who drove more would pay more tax, and people with heavier vehicles would pay more tax. It's a smart system, assuming that all vehicles are buying gas in Metro Vancouver. Things weren't as digitized and tracked back then so it would have been easier to get away with rolling back the odometer to pay less.

Nowadays I think it's a no-brainer; ICBC tracks odometer readings anyway.

[ssiguy]

The problem with odometer readings is that they may not reflect where people put the mileage. Someone may drive very little on a daily basis but takes that yearly trip to Arizona or Florida and gets screwed.

I appreciate that gas revenues are falling as cars become more fuel efficient and with more battery cars entering the market which is why they should follow Sask's lead and bring in a flat yearly charge for electric vehicles of the average per-car revenue Translink makes on gas taxes. EV, due to their weight, disproportionately damage the roads and they use the same roads/transit as everyone else and should get away scott-free because they are wealthy enough to afford an EV.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Road pricing and congestion charges. Problem solved.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by chowhou

A fuel tax was probably more fair than a flat vehicle levy back then since, in general, people who drove more would pay more tax, and people with heavier vehicles would pay more tax. It's a smart system, assuming that all vehicles are buying gas in Metro Vancouver. Things weren't as digitized and tracked back then so it would have been easier to get away with rolling back the odometer to pay less.

Nowadays I think it's a no-brainer; ICBC tracks odometer readings anyway.

I thought it was a flat fee per vehicle.

In Seattle, it's called a "car tab" levied by each City (there's fraud there claiming residency in a different city outside regional transit authority).

Car tabs (MVET) 1.1% ($110 per every $10,000 of vehicle’s value, annually)

https://www.soundtransit.org/get-to-...ax-information

The Motor Vehicle Excise Tax (MVET) is an RTA tax charged upon purchase or annual renewal of car tabs. It’s currently calculated from the depreciated value of your vehicle by using a formula based on the vehicle manufacturer’s suggested retail price (MSRP), or purchase price for commercial trucks and commercial trailers, and a depreciation schedule based on the age of the vehicle. The depreciation schedule, set by state law, has been in place since 1999.

https://www.soundtransit.org/get-to-...ax-information

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

The problem with odometer readings is that they may not reflect where people put the mileage. Someone may drive very little on a daily basis but takes that yearly trip to Arizona or Florida and gets screwed.

I appreciate that gas revenues are falling as cars become more fuel efficient and with more battery cars entering the market which is why they should follow Sask's lead and bring in a flat yearly charge for electric vehicles of the average per-car revenue Translink makes on gas taxes. EV, due to their weight, disproportionately damage the roads and they use the same roads/transit as everyone else and should get away scott-free because they are wealthy enough to afford an EV.

There needs to be a mechanism for all vehicles, including EVs to pay for road use, and to replace the gas tax. Most of the rest of your statement is bs. Comparable ICE cars weigh about the same, and cost about the same.

Tesla Model 3, 1,760 to 1,851 kg, depending on spec $50,990 - $69,990
BMW 3 Series 1,809 kg. $55,000 to $68,000

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

The problem with odometer readings is that they may not reflect where people put the mileage. Someone may drive very little on a daily basis but takes that yearly trip to Arizona or Florida and gets screwed.

I appreciate that gas revenues are falling as cars become more fuel efficient and with more battery cars entering the market which is why they should follow Sask's lead and bring in a flat yearly charge for electric vehicles of the average per-car revenue Translink makes on gas taxes. EV, due to their weight, disproportionately damage the roads and they use the same roads/transit as everyone else and should get away scott-free because they are wealthy enough to afford an EV.

Drivers in Vancouver get "screwed" by the gas tax compared to those in Langley because Langley drivers can easily buy gas in Abbotsford or across the border and dodge the taxes. Just because a system isn't perfectly fair for everyone doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.

Originally Posted by officedweller

I thought it was a flat fee per vehicle.

That's even worse then. Like I said, the gas tax was great because it was generally efficient at taxing usage + tonnage, but its days are numbered. We need a replacement and a car head tax is not the way to go.

[Mac Write]

Looking at the current fleet not counting for retired Mark I's, How does Transit store all the vehicles? We have 343 at present and 2 3 active OMC's (though OMC2 I assume has less then 40 car storage).

• 150 - Mark I's
• 60 - Mark II - Series 1100-1200
• 48 - Mark II - Series 1300-1400
• 84 - Mark III trains
• 1 Mark V train

At present. I understand they don't store all the trains in there at once but can someone (since there's no good info out there) give us a breakdown of where trains are stored what times each OMC has different levels of vehicles etc. Then we will have solid information.

I also heard they want to expand OMC1 or did for the additional 56 cars?

Having a full breakdown including tail tracks, tunnel storage (snow storm level 4) pocket track capacity etc would clear things up and make a great video and wiki article.

[cganuelas1995]

Someone's gotta tell people to not loiter at the top of the stairs at Burrard station because every time it's raining there's people loitering there.

[MIPS]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Road pricing and congestion charges. Problem solved.

[the villagers sharpen their pitchforks]

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by Mac Write

Looking at the current fleet not counting for retired Mark I's, How does Transit store all the vehicles? We have 343 at present and 2 3 active OMC's (though OMC2 I assume has less then 40 car storage).

(list removed)

At present. I understand they don't store all the trains in there at once but can someone (since there's no good info out there) give us a breakdown of where trains are stored what times each OMC has different levels of vehicles etc. Then we will have solid information.

I also heard they want to expand OMC1 or did for the additional 56 cars?

Having a full breakdown including tail tracks, tunnel storage (snow storm level 4) pocket track capacity etc would clear things up and make a great video and wiki article.

They said only OMC1 and OMC3 currently store trains. I guess the maintenance bays might be considered short-term storage in addition to their "parking" rail?

OMC4 will be 146 cars.

There's some more details in the Buzzer Blog post.

https://buzzer.translink.ca/2024/05/...leep-at-night/

And this in 2021

Of those 342 trains a large portion of them are stored overnight at OMC1, but as you’ve probably seen, there isn’t enough room for all of them, so a good portion stay overnight out on the rails in what we call pocket tracks so they are close to stations and can resume service quickly in the mornings.

https://buzzer.translink.ca/2021/05/...treet-station/

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by chowhou

That's even worse then. Like I said, the gas tax was great because it was generally efficient at taxing usage + tonnage, but its days are numbered. We need a replacement and a car head tax is not the way to go.

I believe the NDP of the 90s were going to bring in some flat annual fee. Obviously it wasn't popular and they nixed it before bringing it in.

Some level of usage based fee would be good but hard to implement. Tolls were axed and bringing them back would be political suicide.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by MIPS

[the villagers sharpen their pitchforks]

I didn't say it was politically practical, I said it was fair.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

The problem with odometer readings is that they may not reflect where people put the mileage. Someone may drive very little on a daily basis but takes that yearly trip to Arizona or Florida and gets screwed.

I appreciate that gas revenues are falling as cars become more fuel efficient and with more battery cars entering the market which is why they should follow Sask's lead and bring in a flat yearly charge for electric vehicles of the average per-car revenue Translink makes on gas taxes. EV, due to their weight, disproportionately damage the roads and they use the same roads/transit as everyone else and should get away scott-free because they are wealthy enough to afford an EV.

A person living in White Rock or Abbotsford can easily avoid paying both transit taxes and government taxes by just filling up in Blaine. No system is perfect, but it doesn't to be linear and it can also be capped.

A base charge by vehicle weight makes sense, and a regressive distance-weighted cost with a low ceiling is a pretty good alternative to a gas tax that is ultimately more fair than the current model.

Combine that with an immediate removal of the translink tax on gas resulting in an immediate reduction in fuel prices and I'm pretty sure you can placate voters. Call it revenue neutral and you've got a winner.

You could even do a trial run which ONLY applies to EVs for the first 2 years keeping the majority happy as the feel like they're sticking it to those "stinkin' rich Tesla owners" gettin' away with not paying road taxes and still getting to drive in the HOV (can we remove that perk, please?). Then, when you've worked out the kinks, apply it to all car owners and reduce the price at the pump by taking off gas taxes making ICE owners temporarily happy.

[twoNeurons]

I made a map of the Expo '86 Monorail route ( to the best of my knowledge )

https://imgur.com/a/pu33zaB

Interesting if this line had been kept... or rebuilt in part as condos were going up. We'd have a pretty decent people mover from the SkyTrain to the Beach... something that's kind of lacking, if I'm honest. I'd probably have planned to route it along Pacific Blvd and consider axing the station at today's Creekside park but other than that, I think this really is a missing link downtown and it would be very well used today.