HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #61  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2024, 12:55 AM
Notonfoodstamps Notonfoodstamps is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2022
Posts: 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigs View Post
I think he meant that they were the same population size, not land size. In that sense (going by the UA metric) they are.
Which makes objective/subjective comparisons impossible since there is no control variable or scientific constant (i.e equalized land area)
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #62  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2024, 12:57 AM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is online now
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 30,048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notonfoodstamps View Post

A circle centered on a city downtown is not random. It allows uniform comparison of urban populations free of arbitrary administrative boarders. (A 10 mile radius by area is 314 sq/mi or the size of Austin, TX)
That's one of the dumbest methods I've heard of to compare city populations, particularly at the 10 mile mark.

Even worse than the MSA county mash-up game.

Not all cities grow in perfect concentric rings radiating out from a single downtown. many cities sited along large bodies of water and would have roughly half that area in that 10 mile circle as open water. In other cities things like mountains, floodplains, and other undevelopable land forms get in the way, making this circle measuring system very silly as a comparative tool.

Like it or lump it, UA is still the best we got, flaws and all.
__________________
"Missing middle" housing can be a great middle ground for many middle class families.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #63  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2024, 1:09 AM
Notonfoodstamps Notonfoodstamps is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2022
Posts: 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
That's one of the dumbest methods I've heard of to compare city populations, particularly at the 10 mile mark.

Even worse than the MSA county mash-up game.

Not all cities grow in perfect concentric rings radiating out from a single downtown. many cities sited along large bodies of water and would have roughly half that area in that 10 mile circle as open water. In other cities things like mountains, floodplains, and other undevelopable land forms get in the way, making this circle measuring system very silly as a comparative tool.

Like it or lump it, UA is still the best we got, flaws and all.
The biggest cities don't change regardless if you use circular radius or add census tracts, and theres been enough city-data data crunching threads to more or less confirm it.

NYC
LA
Chicago
SF
Philly/DC/Boston
Miami
Seattle
SD/Baltimore/Denver/MSP

Are the largest cities by population out to ~100 sq/mi of land (using estimated census tract data)

By UA ... Baltimore has 100k more people than St. Louis in ~2/3rds the land, and it beats St. Louis in every meaningful density/population metric for the same reason Vancouver, BC smashes Baltimore in every density/population metric despite having a ~2.7 million MSA.

Last edited by Notonfoodstamps; Jun 27, 2024 at 1:47 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #64  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2024, 1:19 AM
craigs's Avatar
craigs craigs is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 7,131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notonfoodstamps View Post
There are sites take into account water area and give you density metrics as well, which take president over raw population. Case in point Baltimore has more people than Seattle in a 10 mile radius but only because Seattle has less land in that area.

The best way is to count up census tracts and then find the cumulative population in that whatever land area.

Either way by UA... Baltimore has 100k more people than St. Louis in ~2/3rds the land. It is what it is.
Using the UA metric, Baltimore has 55,715 more people than St. Louis. I agree with Crawford that they are the same population.

However, I think Baltimore is more like a miniature Philadelphia (about 10 years behind) rather than another St. Louis.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #65  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2024, 1:29 AM
Nouvellecosse's Avatar
Nouvellecosse Nouvellecosse is offline
Volatile Pacivist
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 9,324
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notonfoodstamps View Post
There are sites take into account water area and give you density metrics as well, which take president over raw population. Case in point Baltimore has more people than Seattle in a 10 mile radius but only because Seattle has less land in that area.

The best way is to count up census tracts and then find the cumulative population in that whatever land area.

Either way by UA... Baltimore has 100k more people than St. Louis in ~2/3rds the land. It is what it is.
That's true when it comes to density metrics that include significant water components. But I've never found that to be an issue with UA since they aren't based on administrative boundaries like like or county limits. In this case, it's important to remember that Urban Areas of the same or similar size can have very different densities. Density comparisons are interesting and can tell a lot about a place but density is a different characteristic than size. And 100k is not a notable difference in UAs of over 2 million. It means one is less than 5% bigger than the other. That's little enough that a fast growing or declining UA could gain or lose that in a couple years.
__________________
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." - George Bernard Shaw
Don't ask people not to debate a topic. Just stop making debatable assertions. Problem solved.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #66  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2024, 1:34 AM
Notonfoodstamps Notonfoodstamps is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2022
Posts: 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
That's true when it comes to density metrics that include significant water components. But I've never found that to be an issue with UA since they aren't based on administrative boundaries like like or county limits. In this case, it's important to remember that Urban Areas of the same or similar size can have very different densities. Density comparisons are interesting and can tell a lot about a place but density is a different characteristic than size. And 100k is not a notable difference in UAs of over 2 million. It means one is less than 5% bigger than the other. That's little enough that a fast growing or declining UA could gain or lose that in a couple years.
It's noticeable when theres a +35% density difference. Case in point Vancouver, BC.

Vancouver's UA/MSA is almost identical to that of Baltimore's or St. Louis in population, but it's 2x as dense as Baltimore and 3x denser than St. Louis.

Last edited by Notonfoodstamps; Jun 27, 2024 at 1:54 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #67  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2024, 3:20 AM
llamaorama llamaorama is online now
Unicorn Wizard!
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 4,238
Something I never considered until recently.

Google Maps measure distance tool:

White House to the home plate at Camden Yards = 34.71 miles
Dallas Reunion Tower to Fort Worth Sundance Square = 30.39 miles

So Washington-Baltimore and Dallas-Fort Worth are highly comparable in terms of overall geographic size.

From furthest outposts of either metro area, Dallas to Sherman, TX (home of semiconductor plants and some extreme long drive till you qualify housing developments) is about 60 miles and Washington to Martinsburg, WV (which has a MARC commuter train stop and is more suburban than other towns further into appalachia) is also about that far.

But DFW is one MSA while Baltimore and Washington are separate MSA's. The Baltimore-Washington CSA is too big to be a nice comparison, but we could get a clean contiguous urban area comparable to DFW by combining the two MSA's, which yield 9,139,291. DFW is 8,100, 037.

So really Baltimore and Washington are one city that would be the 4th largest in the US, just 123,000 people shy of Chicago. If Chicago loses an equivalent number of people over the next 5 years that it did over the past 5 it would probably put the DC-VA-MD region into the 3rd largest metro in the USA spot while it will be a long time for Dallas to get there even with its fast growth.

I also think Fort Worth and Baltimore if separated from the bigger region are sort of similar in size. Baltimore's MSA by itself is 2.6 million. Tarrant County is 2.1 million, then if you add the 200k in Johnson County and split Denton County's 900k (some of which is closer to Dallas) in half, you get 2.7-2.8 million.

Oh, and comparing timetables, it takes the TRE exactly 63 minutes to go from T&P station in Fort Worth to Dallas Union Station, and it also takes the MARC Penn Line exactly 63 minutes go to from Penn Station Baltimore to DC Union Station.

Last edited by llamaorama; Jun 27, 2024 at 3:38 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #68  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2024, 5:39 AM
Prahaboheme Prahaboheme is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,718
Quote:
Originally Posted by llamaorama View Post
Something I never considered until recently.

Google Maps measure distance tool:

White House to the home plate at Camden Yards = 34.71 miles
Dallas Reunion Tower to Fort Worth Sundance Square = 30.39 miles

So Washington-Baltimore and Dallas-Fort Worth are highly comparable in terms of overall geographic size.

From furthest outposts of either metro area, Dallas to Sherman, TX (home of semiconductor plants and some extreme long drive till you qualify housing developments) is about 60 miles and Washington to Martinsburg, WV (which has a MARC commuter train stop and is more suburban than other towns further into appalachia) is also about that far.

But DFW is one MSA while Baltimore and Washington are separate MSA's. The Baltimore-Washington CSA is too big to be a nice comparison, but we could get a clean contiguous urban area comparable to DFW by combining the two MSA's, which yield 9,139,291. DFW is 8,100, 037.

So really Baltimore and Washington are one city that would be the 4th largest in the US, just 123,000 people shy of Chicago. If Chicago loses an equivalent number of people over the next 5 years that it did over the past 5 it would probably put the DC-VA-MD region into the 3rd largest metro in the USA spot while it will be a long time for Dallas to get there even with its fast growth.

I also think Fort Worth and Baltimore if separated from the bigger region are sort of similar in size. Baltimore's MSA by itself is 2.6 million. Tarrant County is 2.1 million, then if you add the 200k in Johnson County and split Denton County's 900k (some of which is closer to Dallas) in half, you get 2.7-2.8 million.

Oh, and comparing timetables, it takes the TRE exactly 63 minutes to go from T&P station in Fort Worth to Dallas Union Station, and it also takes the MARC Penn Line exactly 63 minutes go to from Penn Station Baltimore to DC Union Station.
It's quite common for DC folks to take the train to/fro Baltimore for any given Orioles game at Camden yards or for a concert at Camden. Camden Yards gets some of the region's best outdoor concerts like Fenway, Wrigley etc. DC has no such outdoor concert equivalent. It is very accessible due to proximity.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #69  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2024, 11:42 AM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is online now
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 30,048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notonfoodstamps View Post

By UA ... Baltimore has 100k more people than St. Louis in ~2/3rds the land, and it beats St. Louis in every meaningful density/population metric
No one here is arguing about density.

Yes, the Baltimore UA is more densely populated than the St. Louis UA, on average.

But the cities are still roughly the same size by overall population.
__________________
"Missing middle" housing can be a great middle ground for many middle class families.

Last edited by Steely Dan; Jun 27, 2024 at 12:06 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #70  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2024, 1:02 PM
Notonfoodstamps Notonfoodstamps is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2022
Posts: 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
No one here is arguing about density.

Yes, the Baltimore UA is more densely populated than the St. Louis UA, on average.

But the cities are still roughly the same size by overall population.
They are the same size due to the technicalities of Baltimore and DC’s MSA/UA physically touching and geography splitting off places like Bell Air or Eldersburg.

DC-Baltimore and SF/Oakland-SJ MSA/UA’s are split at county lines as neither allow for overlap which artificially caps the individual sub regions on paper.

Singular regions like St. Louis don’t suffer from this.

Last edited by Notonfoodstamps; Jun 27, 2024 at 2:09 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #71  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2024, 1:11 PM
PhillyRising's Avatar
PhillyRising PhillyRising is offline
America's Hometown
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Lionville, PA
Posts: 11,790
Philadelphia and Baltimore are first cousins who live in adjoining neighborhoods..and one goes to Wawa and the other to Royal Farms.

Boston is our snooty distant relatives who think they are better than everyone else.

All three are not related to New York.



Downtown Baltimore isn't much but I do think Harbor East is really nice.

When everywhere else is too expensive to buy a home, people will flock into Balamer (how they say it)/Balty-more (how Philly says it) because of the relative affordability. It's why Philadelphia will not crash because you can live in Philly for a lost less than what it costs in New York and still commute if necessary.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #72  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2024, 2:36 PM
EastSideHBG's Avatar
EastSideHBG EastSideHBG is offline
Me?!?
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Philadelphia Metro
Posts: 11,238
Quote:
Originally Posted by SIGSEGV View Post
For those curious a block down was a nasty illegal dumping site (the big dirt pile) that was making people in the area sick. The site was just cleaned up and while Camden still has its struggles, this area may start to fill back in over time.
__________________
Right before your eyes you're victimized, guys, that's the world of today and it ain't civilized.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #73  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2024, 3:00 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 10,113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notonfoodstamps View Post
Baltimore & St. Louis are similar size on paper (MSA), not physically in real life. From a proportional population standpoint, St. Louis is to Baltimore as Baltimore is to Philly/DC, which is the fundamental difference between all these cities.

https://www.freemaptools.com/find-population.htm

Highest population I could find in 10 mile radius centered on downtown (but includes water)

St. Louis - 771k
Pittsburgh - 850k
Baltimore - 1.30 million
Boston - 1.79 million
DC - 2.18 million
Philly - 2.25 million
That's not a good methodology for comparing population sizes, since St. Louis's downtown is closer to the metro edge. If you measured a 10-mile radius of downtown Detroit you'd also be misled to think it was a smaller city than Baltimore, even though it's a much larger metro than Baltimore.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #74  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2024, 3:51 PM
mhays mhays is offline
Never Dell
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 19,884
Greater Baltimore and greater DC operate as two different cities with their own brands, teams, etc.

DFW puts a lot of central functions right in the middle between them. They operate more as one.

Greater SF is one continuous city with dense suburbia all the way, far more than the other two.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #75  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2024, 4:00 PM
Notonfoodstamps Notonfoodstamps is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2022
Posts: 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
That's not a good methodology for comparing population sizes, since St. Louis's downtown is closer to the metro edge. If you measured a 10-mile radius of downtown Detroit you'd also be misled to think it was a smaller city than Baltimore, even though it's a much larger metro than Baltimore.
Baltimore has ~930k people living inside the 695 Beltway (141 sq/mi of land + 11 sq/mi of water) which is 30% more than Detroit (630k in 139 sq/mi of land).

So ye, a smaller “city” can absolutely have a bigger metro, case in point Baltimore vs. Detroit, Atlanta vs. Philly or Osaka vs. NYC.

The issues is there’s zero distinction/definition on what’s city vs. suburb vs. rural. UA blends all of it together into one area which is cool and all but that does nothing to help compare specific areas in said region.

Last edited by Notonfoodstamps; Jun 27, 2024 at 4:33 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #76  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2024, 4:06 PM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is online now
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 30,048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notonfoodstamps View Post
They are the same size due to the technicalities of Baltimore and DC’s MSA/UA physically touching and geography splitting off places like Bell Air or Eldersburg.

DC-Baltimore and SF/Oakland-SJ MSA/UA’s are split at county lines as neither allow for overlap which artificially caps the individual sub regions on paper.

Singular regions like St. Louis don’t suffer from this.
No doubt the presence of DC a mere 35 miles from downtown Baltimore greatly complicates the picture vs. a completely stand-alone metro area like St. Louis.

But I don't even really care how big "Baltimore" is compared to "St. Louis", I only entered this discussion to express my opinion that drawing 10 mile circles around downtowns and counting up the people inside that area, and then using those figures to compare the population sizes of "cities without municipal borders" is a really dumb way to do things, for reasons I already explained.

If you think that's a reasonable way to compare city population sizes, have it, but I am not going to agree with you. I suspect that I am not alone in my objection.
__________________
"Missing middle" housing can be a great middle ground for many middle class families.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #77  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2024, 4:07 PM
goat314's Avatar
goat314 goat314 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: St. Louis - Tampa
Posts: 711
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
No one here is arguing about density.

Yes, the Baltimore UA is more densely populated than the St. Louis UA, on average.

But the cities are still roughly the same size by overall population.
I'm familiar with both cities. St. Louis City is definitely more hallowed out (particulary in North St. Louis), while Baltimore maintained more of it's core density (which is typical of East Coast cities). As far as feel, I'd say that they feel like similar sized metros, Baltimore just feels a little denser in the inner city areas. I'd say St. Louis sprawls more and has more highway infrastructure. They have similar sized rail systems, both should be doing much better in regards to ridership. Baltimore is basiclaly how I'd imagine St. Louis to be if it were a Mid-Atlantic city.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #78  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2024, 4:29 PM
wanderer34 wanderer34 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Miami/somewhere in paradise
Posts: 1,529
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigs View Post
Using the UA metric, Baltimore has 55,715 more people than St. Louis. I agree with Crawford that they are the same population.

However, I think Baltimore is more like a miniature Philadelphia (about 10 years behind) rather than another St. Louis.
I disagree with this assessment. St Louis is a river port city, while Baltimore has a major port, in which it's river empties into a major body of water. Philadelphia, while also a major port city, doesn't have the port legacy that St Louis and Baltimore has.

Also, Philadelphia is above the Mason-Dixon Line while MD and MO are considered to be below the Line. MD and MO, albeit was a part of the Union, were also slave states, while PA was a free state. Philadelphia was able to attract up to 2 million residents in 1950 and 1960, while Baltimore and St Louis was several thousand people away from hitting a million in their populations.

Philadelphia, unlike Baltimore and St. Louis, is very cosmopolitan and very diverse. Having neighborhoods such as Chinatown, Little Vietnam along Washington Ave, Little Cambodia along S 7th St, and Latino neighborhoods in North Philly and Kensington, and parts of the Northeast helps Philly's diversity. Also, cities just outside of Philly, such as Allentown, Bethlehem, Easton, Camden, Trenton, Reading, and Lancaster, have either Latino majority populations or a large Latino minority I can't name an Asian or Latino enclave anywhere in Baltimore or St. Louis, and if there's one, it's not the same scale or the same size that Philly can offer.

Finally, Philadelphia has more universities and hospitals within and just outside the city. Baltimore has a world-renowned major hospital (Johns Hopkins), and St Louis has one (Barnes-Jewish), in which the service is very overrated and very subpar, but both cities aren't known as university towns the way Philly and Boston are known as university towns.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #79  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2024, 4:55 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Also, Baltimore does have an in-town favored quarter corridor of (mostly white) wealth. It's small but it's there. It's kind of an eastern St. Louis. Similar size, modest skyline, city-county arrangement, % black, hint of South and with white wedge of wealth.
I find it interesting that the in-town favored quarter of Baltimore (basically the "white L") has basically the same population as the favored quarter of Pittsburgh (150,000). The difference being the balance of the city in the case of Pittsburgh is still mostly a collection of intact, if unfashionable neighborhoods, where the balance of Baltimore (some 430,000) is mainly 80%-90% black neighborhoods, often considerably troubled.

This is the single biggest reason, TBH, that Baltimore lags the rest of the Northeast corridor. For all that gentrification is presented as being a process where wealthy white people displace poor black and brown people, gentrifiers preferentially pick working-class white neighborhoods. When those aren't available, they move into Latino areas, which Baltimore has a distinct lack of (though areas of East Baltimore around Baltimore Highlands/Armstead Gardens/Bayview have flipped Latino over the last 20 years). Black neighborhoods when they do gentrify, tend to do so quite slowly, over generations. And let's also be clear that according to polling, even most black people don't prefer to live in hyperblack communities, which is why black flight occurs across the country both in gentrifying and declining black urban neighborhoods. That means that the future of most such areas is often bleak, short of managed reconstruction heavily subsidized by federal HUD money.

While this problem is largely intractable on the local level, a more solvable one for Baltimore is fixing downtown. Baltimore has a lot of cute, walkable urban areas on the downtown fringe, like Federal Hill, Mt. Vernon, Ridgeley's Delight, and Little Italy. However, downtown has many flaws. It's quite large - past the point of easy walkability. The conversion of most roads into multi-lane one-way streets means cars zip through at unsafe speeds. Highways and large multi-lane boulevards stop easy pedestrian connectivity with most of the nearby neighborhoods. Even pre-COVID, it wasn't a particularly robust downtown for office work, though outside of a few nodes, the residential component also feels a bit lackluster. Most of the efforts to revitalize downtown have focused on the Inner Harbor, and the large-scale developments there are very inward-focused (like in a sunbelt city) and don't have much to draw someone to explore the wider area on foot.

As someone who lives in Pittsburgh, I'm well aware of the process where in-town neighborhoods steal the luster of Downtown proper, weakening efforts to revitalize the core. That said, it's missing something akin to Pittsburgh's Cultural District, or Market Square. There's plenty of interesting things, but they're often blocks apart, without a decent high street packed with commercial draws.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #80  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2024, 5:17 PM
Crawford Crawford is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 31,324
Baltimore's traditional core is pretty terrible. Great bones, but terminally ill. The old shopping district and the urban renewal Charles Center area are all a mess. The areas surrounding the core are all doing well tho.

Baltimore had core issues pre-Covid, but it now isn't alone. There are lots of cities with really strong gentrification where the traditional downtown seems in bad shape, esp. post-Covid. St. Louis, Oakland, maybe Pittsburgh, maybe Portland. Even arguably SF (bad shape for SF standards).
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 2:54 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.