Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I can't get it across to people here that Quebec is not just France-but-over-there. I don't know why, but people who do not expect New York to be like London or Mexico City to be like Madrid still cannot get it clear on Quebec and Montreal.

I mean, Montreal looks like the Sopranos intro and it often feels like it too, language and all. It's not Brussels or Geneva.

French people understand this, though.

Among the alleged advantages of independence is that it would put an end to this ambiguity once and for all.

Because of course, one of the side effects of Quebec being perceived as "French" is the vision that Québécois francophones, being "French", are just one ethnic group among all the others in what is originally and fundamentally an anglo country. (And for low information types, that they just moved here just like Ukrainians and Italians, etc., but for some reason they decided that they were too good to become CanadiAns like everyone else.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I was talking about this with some Swedes over Midsommar. They are raised with the perspective that Swedish is not a "world language", so if they are curious about travel and the world beyond the Nordics, they should pay attention in English class (English being the best bet here, although there are still French preschools and schools in Stockholm).

When I asked about the "world language" category, the consensus was "English, French or Spanish". Obviously this could be seen as Eurocentric, but then these are Europeans in Europe.

.

Spanish has lot of native speakers and a ton of countries where it is the official language, but I've never actually used it as a lingua franco outside of a place where it's the local language, or with someone for whom it was their native tongue.

I've used French (outside of francophone places with non-native speakers) as a lingua franca with Swedes, Dutch, Russians, Italians, Spaniards, Portuguese, Dominicans, Cubans, Brazilians, Argentines, Russians, Vietnamese, Armenians, Romanians, and of course people from all over North Africa and the Middle East. (Though one could argue the latter region isn't a truly non-francophone area, even if French is very an official language there.)

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Spanish has lot of native speakers and a ton of countries where it is the official language, but I've never actually used it as a lingua franco outside of a place where it's the local language, or with someone for whom it was their native tongue.

You mean not their native tongue?

That makes sense since the Spanish colonized the world a few centuries earlier than the French, and in the New World where the indigenous people sadly fell victim to Eastern Hemisphere diseases, so Spanish became the lingua franca in pretty much all of the countries they colonized.

The French colonized parts of Africa and Southeast Asia two centuries later where French would never be able to overwhelm the indigenous language.

I'm sure there are still some exceptions to your experience in Spanish. Have you spoken to someone in Spanish whose native language was Quechua? Or maybe someone from Equatorial Guinea? That might be more similar to the French situation.

English is, of course, different from French or Spanish in that two non-native speakers will talk to each other in English. An Estonian visiting Germany, for example.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Among the alleged advantages of independence is that it would put an end to this ambiguity once and for all.

Because of course, one of the side effects of Quebec being perceived as "French" is the vision that Québécois francophones, being "French", are just one ethnic group among all the others in what is originally and fundamentally an anglo country. (And for low information types, that they just moved here just like Ukrainians and Italians, etc., but for some reason they decided that they were too good to become CanadiAns like everyone else.)

Hard to say. Independance didn't turn Kyiv, Riga or Tallinn into unambigously not Russian speaking cities. In 1995 Anglophones might have fled on mass but you could argue now that Quebec as an independant bastion of progressivism in 2028 Canada might see an influx of Anglophones. Quebec would have some control over that but it could easily sneak up on them.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

You mean not their native tongue?

That makes sense since the Spanish colonized the world a few centuries earlier than the French, and in the New World where the indigenous people sadly fell victim to Eastern Hemisphere diseases, so Spanish became the lingua franca in pretty much all of the countries they colonized.

The French colonized parts of Africa and Southeast Asia two centuries later where French would never be able to overwhelm the indigenous language.

I'm sure there are still some exceptions to your experience in Spanish. Have you spoken to someone in Spanish whose native language was Quechua? Or maybe someone from Equatorial Guinea? That might be more similar to the French situation.

English is, of course, different from French or Spanish in that two non-native speakers will talk to each other in English. An Estonian visiting Germany, for example.

Sorry, I should have been clearer. If I'm in Ecuador, even if I am speaking in Spanish to a native Quechua speaker, I'm still in a country where Spanish is the official language and the main public vernacular. In regions of Ecuador where the Indigenous population is predominant, store signs and any official stuff in generally in Spanish. Spanish isn't an international lingua franca there. It's the national language of the country. Similar to how such stuff is generally in English (or occasionally French) in Indigenous communities in Canada.

My point is the situation you describe with an Estonian visiting Germany using English as a lingua franca does happen with French on occasion as well. Even if much much less frequently.

I base this on the fact that on occasion in a non-anglophone non-francophone country, I've spoken to locals in English, and they've responded with "sorry no English, but I do know some French", without my identifying myself as a Canadian or a native French speaker. To them I was just a random westerner who spoke English, and they gave French a shot with me because they thought I might know it. Jodie Foster or Prince Charles in such a situation would have used their French as a lingua franca.

It's never happened to me with Spanish or any other language I don't think.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Sorry, I should have been clearer. If I'm in Ecuador, even if I am speaking in Spanish to a native Quechua speaker, I'm still in a country where Spanish is the official language and the main public vernacular. In regions of Ecuador where the Indigenous population is predominant, store signs and any official stuff in generally in Spanish. Spanish isn't an international lingua franca there. It's the national language of the country. Similar to how such stuff is generally in English (or occasionally French) in Indigenous communities in Canada.

My point is the situation you describe with an Estonian visiting Germany using English as a lingua franca does happen with French on occasion as well. Even if much much less frequently.

I base this on the fact that on occasion in a non-anglophone non-francophone country, I've spoken to locals in English, and they've responded with "sorry no English, but I do know some French", without my identifying myself as a Canadian or a native French speaker. To them I was just a random westerner who spoke English, and they gave French a shot with me because they thought I might know it. Jodie Foster or Prince Charles in such a situation would have used their French as a lingua franca.

It's never happened to me with Spanish or any other language I don't think.

Yes even ignoring former French colonies and their neighbours I think French is the second most useful Lingua Franca. As you say outside of the immediate orbit. This is fading in Europe especially though as people drop French and German for English. It's very isolating to be a French speaker in say Poland who can't speak English.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Yes even ignoring former French colonies and their neighbours I think French is the second most useful Lingua Franca. As you say outside of the immediate orbit. This is fading in Europe especially though as people drop French and German for English. It's very isolating to be a French speaker in say Poland who can't speak English.

Of course. All of this is the remnants of past glory and fading fast. And quite tellingly most of the people with whom this happens tend to be older.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Hard to say. Independance didn't turn Kyiv, Riga or Tallinn into unambigously not Russian speaking cities. In 1995 Anglophones might have fled on mass but you could argue now that Quebec as an independant bastion of progressivism in 2028 Canada might see an influx of Anglophones. Quebec would have some control over that but it could easily sneak up on them.

That's not really the point I'm making, and I think it was relatively clear. It's about how people perceive French-speaking Canadians from outside the country.

Though I suppose it does impact the situation on the ground once people settle here, because if you arrive thinking Québécois francophones are simply immigrants or an ethnic group among others in an anglo land, there is a good chance it colours your language choices, behaviours and attitudes.

As for Estonia, Latvia and Ukraine, well demographics is a long game. I think that in Talliin and Riga the national language share has increased by 10 percentage points and Russian has decreased correspondingly. Those cities still have 35-45% Russian speakers within them though.

As for Kyiv, not sure of the exact numbers there but Ukraine is a bit different from the other two in that a huge number of ethnic Ukrainians (even ardent Ukrainian nationalistic patriots) are native Russian speakers.

Volodymyr Zalenskyy's first language is Russian.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Of course. All of this is the remnants of past glory and fading fast. And quite tellingly most of the people with whom this happens tend to be older.

French works great with natives of many young and very populous African countries, though. I met a Cameroonian in Gothenburg a while back who told me that his country was the only other country besides Canada whose official languages are English and French (he preferred to speak in French).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

French works great with natives of many young and very populous African countries, though. I met a Cameroonian in Gothenburg a while back who told me that his country was the only other country besides Canada whose official languages are English and French (he preferred to speak in French).

Yes, French is growing explosively in sub-Saharan Africa obviously due to high birth rates. I wouldn't call this an example of it being an international lingua franca as these are countries where it's typically the official language and therefore the main teaching language in schools. But it definitely adds to the overall heft of French.

It's been said that the number of French speakers in the world could increase from about 350 million today to 750 million in the next 25 years.

Though a few former French colonies in Africa have been moving away from French in favour of English. It's said that it's because English has more global reach (unquestionably true) but often it's also very political - some countries highly resent France's foreign policy meddling in African affairs.

In Rwanda it's because President (for life?) Robert Mugabe has most of his allies in more anglophone-oriented countries in Eastern Africa.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Hard to say. Independance didn't turn Kyiv, Riga or Tallinn into unambigously not Russian speaking cities.

Independence gave Estonian and Latvian clearly the prime position and ascendance, and they became dominant languages in Riga and Tallinn, which wasn't the case before 1991 (especially in Riga where Russian dominated, like English in Montréal in 1900).

Kyiv is different, because the Ukrainians were far more Russified than the Balts, and also because of course Ukrainian is very close to Russian in terms of language, something French is not to English despite the many French words in English.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I base this on the fact that on occasion in a non-anglophone non-francophone country, I've spoken to locals in English, and they've responded with "sorry no English, but I do know some French", without my identifying myself as a Canadian or a native French speaker. To them I was just a random westerner who spoke English, and they gave French a shot with me because they thought I might know it.

Which countries?

French has regressed tremendously in Europe both due to active US/UK lobbying of English, magical thinking (English speakers = winners, better economy, etc), and awful way of teaching French like a dead language like Latin (insistance on grammar, conjugations, etc). My physical therapist, who travels to Greece frequently, tells me 20-30 years ago you could find Greeks speaking French everywhere there, and signs were in Greek and French (no English), but today it's all English signs, and fewer and fewer Greeks are able to speak French. Same in Romania.

Even Portugal has fallen for the English magical thinking (as if teaching Portuguese kids English from age 5 was magically going to solve Portugal's economic problems, when their largest trading partners are Spain and France, ridiculous!). As for Italy, they have never liked us (they see us the way Canadians see the US, except the US is so powerful there's no way to escape it really, whereas France is only slightly larger than Italy, so they can go into rejection mode, something the Canadians couldn't do with the US), so French learning is in great decline in Italy too. Even Spain, where France is quite liked, has now fallen for the "English = success" magical thinking, although when I go to Spain I speak Spanish anyway, so I don't notice if less people speak French than in the past (the Spaniards in general feel embarrassed when they speak French, it's a difficult language for them to pronounce).

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

French works great with natives of many young and very populous African countries, though. I met a Cameroonian in Gothenburg a while back

The people I heard speaking French in Italy were Francophone Africans (plus French tourists, and the one odd Québec tourist couple in little known Modena). In Verona as we walked up the scenic path above the Adige river, there was a Black African family who passed us by, father, mother, daughter, they spoke French to each other with what seemed to me as the accent of Côte d'Ivoire.

On the Italian radio one day I heard a talk show where they were making fun of French speakers, trying to mimic us in absurd ways. Apparently from what I understand they find French speakers a bit "stuck up" or snobbish. The sounds like French u, or nasal vowels, they sound very foreign and snobbish to them Latin speakers. Obviously also the French r. It's the Germanic influence over French pronunciation that always grates with Italian or Spanish ears.

Originally Posted by kool maudit

who told me that his country was the only other country besides Canada whose official languages are English and French (he preferred to speak in French).

Cameroon is the opposite of Canada. In Cameroon the French language dominates, and the Anglophone provinces are in open rebellion against the central power in French-speaking Yaoundé.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Which countries?
.

One recent example is Portugal. I was in Lisbon for a week and it happened twice. These people had no way of knowing that I spoke French.

Of course, this pales in comparison to the dozens of interactions I had in English while I was there.

Also, I am not counting the other occasions (3-4) where after initially communicating with me in English, Portuguese people overheard me speaking French with my wife and switched to very basic French. (As these people also spoke English, it's not really an example of them having French as a lingua franca.)

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Though a few former French colonies in Africa have been moving away from French in favour of English.

Not a few, just Rwanda basically, and that's it. And we know why... Anglophone rebellion trained in English-speaking Uganda which toppled the French-speaking Hutu regime with the help of the CIA all too eager to kick France out of another country. That said French was spoken by only 5% of Rwandans, because Rwanda is unique in Africa in having just one indigenous language for all the people, Kinyarwanda, which is the main langue (and not English or French). And the leader of the opposition, who was prevented from running in the presidential election this year by the Kagamé regime, speaks very good French. She was interviewed on French TV the other day (she's a very courageous woman... the Kagamé regime took away her passport, seized her bank account, etc, all because she DARED run as an independent candidate in the election against Kagamé.

I predict once Kagamé's dictatorship falls, there will be a return of French in Rwanda. It will have to share its position with English, but it won't be English-only as it is now with Kagamé.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

One recent example is Portugal. I was in Lisbon for a week and it happened twice. These people had no way of knowing that I spoke French.

Portugal is the most Francophone country in Europe (outside of Flanders), but it's been moving away from French in the past 15 years like I've said. As a result, around the mid-2010s the UK became the main destination of Portuguese emigrants (and not France anymore as had been the case for decades before), and the irony is the UK left the EU in 2020 and now the Portuguese cannot move to the UK anymore with their newly acquired English skills, and cannot work in France because the young Portuguese did not bother to learn French. Great job by the Portuguese government really!

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Not a few, just Rwanda basically, and that's it. And we know why... Anglophone rebellion trained in English-speaking Uganda which toppled the French-speaking Hutu regime with the help of the CIA all too eager to kick France out of another country. That said French was spoken by only 5% of Rwandans, because Rwanda is unique in Africa in having just one indigenous language for all the people, Kinyarwanda, which is the main langue (and not English or French). And the leader of the opposition, who was prevented from running in the presidential election this year by the Kagamé regime, speaks very good French. She was interviewed on French TV the other day (she's a very courageous woman... the Kagamé regime took away her passport, seized her bank account, etc, all because she DARED run as an independent candidate in the election against Kagamé.

I predict once Kagamé's dictatorship falls, there will be a return of French in Rwanda. It will have to share its position with English, but it won't be English-only as it is now with Kagamé.

Seriously bruh?! I know it's an immense privelege to be an Anglophone North American and not care about language but if you think America could give two Fs about what languge they speak in Rwanda you really are conspiracy oriented. He stopped an ongoing genocide and gets away with a lot as we don't want to deal with any kind of a flare up.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Not a few, just Rwanda basically, and that's it. And we know why... Anglophone rebellion trained in English-speaking Uganda which toppled the French-speaking Hutu regime with the help of the CIA all too eager to kick France out of another country. That said French was spoken by only 5% of Rwandans, because Rwanda is unique in Africa in having just one indigenous language for all the people, Kinyarwanda, which is the main langue (and not English or French). And the leader of the opposition, who was prevented from running in the presidential election this year by the Kagamé regime, speaks very good French. She was interviewed on French TV the other day (she's a very courageous woman... the Kagamé regime took away her passport, seized her bank account, etc, all because she DARED run as an independent candidate in the election against Kagamé.

I predict once Kagamé's dictatorship falls, there will be a return of French in Rwanda. It will have to share its position with English, but it won't be English-only as it is now with Kagamé.

Mali, Niger and Algeria are also not too keen on the French language (and France of course) but of course the language still has lots of legs in those countries so it won't be going away anytime soon.

Interestingly enough, one of Kagame's former ministers is the head of the international Francophonie organization!

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Seriously bruh?! I know it's an immense privelege to be an Anglophone North American and not care about language but if you think America could give two Fs about what languge they speak in Rwanda you really are conspiracy oriented. He stopped an ongoing genocide and gets away with a lot as we don't want to deal with any kind of a flare up.

You did not understand and jumped on your high horse.

The US trained and armed the Kagamé insurgency. This is a well established fact. They were quite happy to kick France out of the Great Lakes region. It's not a language issue per se, more a power competition (of which language is just one element, among others).

The US did the same in Lebanon, all too eager to diminish French presence and influence there. They are also active in places like Morocco. Pretending to be allies but at the same time busy tripping their so-called allies (see the Aukus affair more recently).

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Mali, Niger and Algeria are also not too keen on the French language (and France of course) but of course the language still has lots of legs in those countries so it won't be going away anytime soon.

Neither Mali nor Niger have moved away from French. It's still the lingua franca in these countries, the one the military juntas use to write their communiqués and run their ministries, the one that is used in schools to teach all subjects, etc.

As for Algeria, their rejection of French goes way way back in time, it's nothing recent or new, and despite more than 40 years of efforts to eject French from Algeria, French still exerts a lot of influence there (you can't erase 130 years of history in just 4 decades).