Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

A French guy I met last year who was working in a law firm in Toronto told me that his colleagues say people in Québec are "inward-looking" , kind of backward and not open to other people. They didn't say "racist", but it was close to it.

I suppose that's the general image of Québec in the ROC. It wasn't a very positive image...

Yes this is accurate assessment. I mean Toronto imagines itself as more outward looking than it is. Quebec is clearly the most inward looking part of the country. A lot of this is good as it has a vibrant culture and lifestyle wheras most of the rest of Canada is obsessed with not being American.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Quebec is clearly the most inward looking part of the country.

Seen from the Anglophone world, perhaps, but not when seen from the Francophone world. Québec seems to me much more open to countries and cultures that Anglophone Canada is largely closed to. I mean, the whole world is not just made up of China, India and the Philippines.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Seen from the Anglophone world, perhaps, but not when seen from the Francophone world. Québec seems to me much more open to countries and cultures that Anglophone Canada is largely closed to. I mean, the whole world is not just made up of China, India and the Philippines.

Which countries or cultures do you find MOC closed to?

[New Brisavoine]

Québec is much more open and familiar with Francophone countries than the ROC. It has also closer ties with some Latin American countries than the ROC.

Anglophones the world over have this tendency to believe the Anglophone world = the entire planet, when it's just really one part of the world.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Québec is much more open and familiar with Francophone countries than the ROC. It has also closer ties with some Latin American countries than the ROC.

Anglophones the world over have this tendency to believe the Anglophone world = the entire planet, when it's just really one part of the world.

Both communities have a healthy presence in MOC. I can't think of many communities that do not, or which run into particular problems because the broader society is closed to them.

[New Brisavoine]

I'm not just talking of community presence. I'm talking of knowledge of the country, visibility of the country on Québec TV channels (as opposed to the country almost never appearing on ROC TV channels), people talking about the country in daily conversations, etc.

I mean, how often do you get news or documentaries about Cameroon, Algeria, Haiti on TV stations in Ontario or British Columbia? Can the average person in the ROC name the capital of Côte d'Ivoire without checking in an encyclopedia? Does the average ROCer know the name of the prime minister of France? All things that many Québécois know due to frequent exposure in their media.

Closed society really? Only if you consider that the world ends at the borders of the Anglophone world.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I'm not just talking of community presence. I'm talking of knowledge of the country, visibility of the country on Québec TV channels (as opposed to the country almost never appearing on ROC TV channels), people talking about the country in daily conversations, etc.

I mean, how often do you get news or documentaries about Cameroon, Algeria, Haiti on TV stations in Ontario or British Columbia? Can the average person in the ROC name the capital of Côte d'Ivoire without checking in an encyclopedia? Does the average ROCer know the name of the prime minister of France? All things that many Québécois know due to frequent exposure in their media.

Closed society really? Only if you consider that the world ends at the borders of the Anglophone world.

Even ignoring the Anglophone Francophone world which yes langauge enables much more knowledge. All of Canada over-estimates their understanding of the US but especially Quebec who no longer has the strong family ties that Anglophone Canada still has. But in terms of openess it is a much more complicated calculation.

[Acajack]

For all the talk about ROCers being ersatz Americans, this is actually one aspect where Québécois are more similar to Americans than ROCers.

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

This is not related to anything anyone is currently talking about in this thread, but I thought it might be interesting nonetheless. This came up in a recent conversation with a friend I was catching up with.

I have two friends who are American but moved to Montreal as students and eventually immigrated. They're both Canadian citizens now. They both speak excellent French and until recently had spent their entire careers working for Quebec companies that operate in French (often with many French-from-France employees). Now they both have jobs that are based in the ROC and they're experiencing real culture shock in dealing with English Canadians. It's a remarkably different working environment to Quebec. People are conflict-averse to a fault, passive aggressive and generally unwilling to express anything directly.

Make of that what you will. Personally I find it very interesting and a decent reflection of my own experience of working with ROCers (given that I've spent my entire adult life either in Quebec or overseas). As an English Canadian myself I'm able to play the game and understand the nuances of how everyone is operating, but my American friends seem a bit taken aback.

[Acajack]

French is still a language with international pretentions and some of that hubris even rubs off on little old Québec.

This is not the case for Swedish, Finnish or even Dutch.

I mean you get Russians and Brazilians who drop into Montréal who already know French. That doesn't happen with the local language in Stockholm, Helsinki or Amsterdam.

Originally Posted by kool maudit

It wouldn't be too far to say that the situation with English in the Netherlands and Scandinavia is a mile wide and an inch deep. Maybe a mile and a foot...

Most people under 60 can speak English here, most often quite well. There are tech companies in Stockholm where English is the office's official language. There are Swedes who are likely more comfortable discussing work-related things in English than in Swedish, because they are used to reporting on these things in English and have a history with the necessary terms and phrasings. There is very little perceived tension on the level of identity.

And with all that said... this is not a bilingual country. This is a Swedish-speaking country. Real life happens in Swedish. It would require some deep cultural anthropology to get into exactly why and how it is this way, but it is.

The other issue is that French is not going to act like Dutch or Swedish, whatever the local circumstance. Languages have personalities of their own.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

A French guy I met last year who was working in a law firm in Toronto told me that his colleagues say people in Québec are "inward-looking" , kind of backward and not open to other people. They didn't say "racist", but it was close to it.

I suppose that's the general image of Québec in the ROC. It wasn't a very positive image...

Does this French guy work for one of the Seven Sisters?

Both me and SO have lots of professional/personal contacts with Canada's Seven Sisters in both the Toronto/Montréal offices, and the lawyers there definitely do not hold the general opinion that Québec is inward looking, kind of backward or not open to other people. Otherwise my SO would had ditched Toronto's corporate world long ago and returned to Québec.

More likely it's an off-handed comment from some of the old-guard ex-Québec Angryphones who are pissed off that they got booted out of Montreal back during the 70s/80s (usually easy to identify because they still swear allegiance to the Habs but can't speak French). Even in the corporate world here, they're a loud minority and extremely bitter.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Does this French guy work for one of the Seven Sisters?

Both me and SO have lots of professional/personal contacts with Canada's Seven Sisters in both the Toronto/Montréal offices, and the lawyers there definitely do not hold the general opinion that Québec is inward looking, kind of backward or not open to other people. Otherwise my SO would had ditched Toronto's corporate world long ago and returned to Québec.

More likely it's an off-handed comment from some of the old-guard ex-Québec Angryphones who are pissed off that they got booted out of Montreal back during the 70s/80s (usually easy to identify because they still swear allegiance to the Habs but can't speak French). Even in the corporate world here, they're a loud minority and extremely bitter.

I would say some Toronto Establishment types are an exception to the rule, due to a mix of sophistication and wanting to keep a good thing going.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Does this French guy work for one of the Seven Sisters?

No idea. All I know is his immediate boss is a Chinese woman from Alberta.

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Both me and SO have lots of professional/personal contacts with Canada's Seven Sisters in both the Toronto/Montréal offices, and the lawyers there definitely do not hold the general opinion that Québec is inward looking, kind of backward or not open to other people. Otherwise my SO would had ditched Toronto's corporate world long ago and returned to Québec.

More likely it's an off-handed comment from some of the old-guard ex-Québec Angryphones who are pissed off that they got booted out of Montreal back during the 70s/80s (usually easy to identify because they still swear allegiance to the Habs but can't speak French). Even in the corporate world here, they're a loud minority and extremely bitter.

I don't think it was just one person. It was more a general thing. He said there was only one guy from Québec in the law firm, all the other ones were Anglophones. Also, their low opinion of Québec wasn't "loud" or "bitter", just something stated as a matter of fact but without passion, like I sometime hear in France some people saying the people of Basque ancestry in the Basque country tend to be "inward looking" and living within their community, but that said without anger or passion, just perhaps a bit of disappointment or a feeling of otherness.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Acajack

French is still a language with international pretentions.

I was talking about this with some Swedes over Midsommar. They are raised with the perspective that Swedish is not a "world language", so if they are curious about travel and the world beyond the Nordics, they should pay attention in English class (English being the best bet here, although there are still French preschools and schools in Stockholm).

When I asked about the "world language" category, the consensus was "English, French or Spanish". Obviously this could be seen as Eurocentric, but then these are Europeans in Europe.

As an aside on the whole outward vs. inward thing, a lot of the most compelling places go hard on both, with this usually being divided by class. World cities like New York and London, for instance, also have very inward-looking working-class traditions with their own dialects and such. Stockholm and Toronto are more biased towards the "out" half of the equation. A large city like Cairo would be more biased to the "in".

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Acajack

For all the talk about ROCers being ersatz Americans, this is actually one aspect where Québécois are more similar to Americans than ROCers.

I can't get it across to people here that Quebec is not just France-but-over-there. I don't know why, but people who do not expect New York to be like London or Mexico City to be like Madrid still cannot get it clear on Quebec and Montreal.

I mean, Montreal looks like the Sopranos intro and it often feels like it too, language and all. It's not Brussels or Geneva.

French people understand this, though.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I can't get it across to people here that Quebec is not just France-but-over-there. I don't know why, but people who do not expect New York to be like London or Mexico City to be like Madrid still cannot get it clear on Quebec and Montreal.

I mean, Montreal looks like the Sopranos intro and it often feels like it too, language and all. It's not Brussels or Geneva.

French people understand this, though.

What is it that Matteo Lane says? "It's not 'just like Paris', it's like Cleveland but they speak French".

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

What is it that Matteo Lane says? "It's not 'just like Paris', it's like Cleveland but they speak French".

I'd request a slight upgrade to Philadelphia

Cleveland is too young!

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

This is not related to anything anyone is currently talking about in this thread, but I thought it might be interesting nonetheless. This came up in a recent conversation with a friend I was catching up with.

I have two friends who are American but moved to Montreal as students and eventually immigrated. They're both Canadian citizens now. They both speak excellent French and until recently had spent their entire careers working for Quebec companies that operate in French (often with many French-from-France employees). Now they both have jobs that are based in the ROC and they're experiencing real culture shock in dealing with English Canadians. It's a remarkably different working environment to Quebec. People are conflict-averse to a fault, passive aggressive and generally unwilling to express anything directly.

Make of that what you will. Personally I find it very interesting and a decent reflection of my own experience of working with ROCers (given that I've spent my entire adult life either in Quebec or overseas). As an English Canadian myself I'm able to play the game and understand the nuances of how everyone is operating, but my American friends seem a bit taken aback.

I think in general this tracks with my experience as well. It depends what part of English Canada though to some extent. Certainly Alberta has a directness that is more American.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Does it really, when people actually have all the facts?

Most people abroad also wonder why there are so many people who have lived their entire lives in Montréal and don't speak French.

I've never experienced this. The opposite actually. People have expressed surprise you need French to function in Montreal. Montreal is 80% Francophone but I think there is an impression it's 50-50. You don't need to speak Catalonian to function in Barcelona. On the other more analagous hand you can't function in French in Zurich or in German in Geneva but there aren't really large minority groups there. But it's also not English which is the main reason people think it should be sufficient. They don't believe lots of doctors for example aren't comfortable giving care in English and imagine it's only political.

[Acajack]

I'd say that generally Montreal is globally perceived to be more French (francophone) than it actually is. Hence the befuddlement at those who live there but don't speak French.

But sure there is also befuddlement at Quebecers who live 5 hours from NYC and don't speak English.

Both of these can coexist.

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I've never experienced this. The opposite actually. People have expressed surprise you need French to function in Montreal. Montreal is 80% Francophone but I think there is an impression it's 50-50. You don't need to speak Catalonian to function in Barcelona. On the other more analagous hand you can't function in French in Zurich or in German in Geneva but there aren't really large minority groups there. But it's also not English which is the main reason people think it should be sufficient. They don't believe lots of doctors for example aren't comfortable giving care in English and imagine it's only political.

[Acajack]

As global, self-absorbed and pompous as they are, New York, London and also Paris take their roles as the beacon of their country's national cultures seriously.

Toronto does not. At best Toronto thinks that local GTA culture and GTA interests (often not even Canadian) are all there is or should be to Canadian culture.

I suspect Stockholm is still a bit more like NYC, London, Paris...

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I was talking about this with some Swedes over Midsommar. They are raised with the perspective that Swedish is not a "world language", so if they are curious about travel and the world beyond the Nordics, they should pay attention in English class (English being the best bet here, although there are still French preschools and schools in Stockholm).

When I asked about the "world language" category, the consensus was "English, French or Spanish". Obviously this could be seen as Eurocentric, but then these are Europeans in Europe.

As an aside on the whole outward vs. inward thing, a lot of the most compelling places go hard on both, with this usually being divided by class. World cities like New York and London, for instance, also have very inward-looking working-class traditions with their own dialects and such. Stockholm and Toronto are more biased towards the "out" half of the equation. A large city like Cairo would be more biased to the "in".

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

No idea. All I know is his immediate boss is a Chinese woman from Alberta.

I don't think it was just one person. It was more a general thing. He said there was only one guy from Québec in the law firm, all the other ones were Anglophones. Also, their low opinion of Québec wasn't "loud" or "bitter", just something stated as a matter of fact but without passion, like I sometime hear in France some people saying the people of Basque ancestry in the Basque country tend to be "inward looking" and living within their community, but that said without anger or passion, just perhaps a bit of disappointment or a feeling of otherness.

Then he must be working some niche boutique law firm and not in one of Canada's most prestigious law firms. I can't speak to the culture within these lower tier boutique firms as I don't deal with them.

For the top national firms, the Montréal office always has the second highest headcount after Toronto (not Vancouver nor Calgary), and I don't know of any firm I work with on a regular basis that doesn't have a clique of Québec lawyers staffed in Toronto as well to bridge. Post-COVID, it's pretty much unheard of not to have some Québecois lawyers staffed on MNC legal advisory projects.