Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The good thing is that they don't have to be devious that way. Things have just worked out and gelled in that direction.

Well, if you consider stuff like foreign affairs, finance, DND, etc. as the biggies, they were always in Ottawa and stayed there even when they started putting offices in Gatineau (Hull) in the 1970s.

So nothing new.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I don't think that represents a paradox.

Yeah, maybe "hypocrisy" would be a better choice of word!

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Very apropos.

Quebecers are the Canadians who support bilingualism the most, both for the entire country and within their own province.

They also see it as a source of Canadian pride, whereas most ROCers generally do not. More ROCers see it as placating or kowtowing to a minority!

Also ROCers tend to disagree that their province should be bilingual, but also paradoxically think Quebec should be a bilingual province.

https://www.ledroit.com/actualites/2...F65VJNHHFNUYE/

Going along with our discussion of federal jobs, this is entirely because bilingualism is seen as an elite imposition in the ROC. Give them access to real education and you'd see that mentality change. But right now, for the most part (although it's getting better), governments jobs are largely seen as a reward for learning French, and mostly the only people who choose to enroll in immersion (especially outside Ottawa and Northern Ontario or NB) are people who had experience with the federal government (ergo elites to the rest).

Imagine growing up in the middle of the Prairies with reduced access to French education or parents who just never thought about it. You work your way up through some great education. And the nice government job is out of reach because you don't have Bs. The resentment should be understandable. This is why I argued earlier that some base immersion should be mandatory through the primary grades. And why the federal government should not make language a screening criteria but should actually offer language training to every qualified applicant regardless of FOL (which is actually something we do half-assedly for the CAF).

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Departments in Gatineau are more francophone I would say but that's mostly because people over time will gravitate to jobs closer to home. It doesn't affect climate scientists at Environment Canada as much because that's a specialized field, but in interchangeable stuff that every organization has like contracts, accounting, audit, communications, human resources, etc., people can work in any department so they seek out jobs in Gatineau for commuting reasons.

I am sure that the number of francophones at RCMP HQ has slowly but surely plummeted since they moved from central-eastern Ottawa (easily accessible from the Gatineau side and also Orléans, Rockland, Embrun, etc.) to Barrhaven.

Makes sense for the interchangeable jobs. I guess most of the people I know who work for government had a lifetime interest in what they are doing and mostly moved from outside of Ottawa to do it.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Going along with our discussion of federal jobs, this is entirely because bilingualism is seen as an elite imposition in the ROC. Give them access to real education and you'd see that mentality change. But right now, for the most part (although it's getting better), governments jobs are largely seen as a reward for learning French, and mostly the only people who choose to enroll in immersion (especially outside Ottawa and Northern Ontario or NB) are people who had experience with the federal government (ergo elites to the rest).

Imagine growing up in the middle of the Prairies with reduced access to French education or parents who just never thought about it. You work your way up through some great education. And the nice government job is out of reach because you don't have Bs. The resentment should be understandable. This is why I argued earlier that some base immersion should be mandatory through the primary grades. And why the federal government should not make language a screening criteria but should actually offer language training to every qualified applicant regardless of FOL (which is actually something we do half-assedly for the CAF).

Rightly or wrongly and whatever the reason or whomever is to blame, I think support for and interest in bilingualism in Canada peaked some time ago, and especially with the demographic changes we are seeing it will all be slowly downhill from here.

I guess we shall eventually see what the impacts of that will be on the future of the country - if any.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Makes sense for the interchangeable jobs. I guess most of the people I know who work for government had a lifetime interest in what they are doing and mostly moved from outside of Ottawa to do it.

Yeah, I suppose specialized jobs like climate scientists or fish population specialists tilt towards people from outside the capital region, whereas the interchangeable jobs are held more by locals, often Franco-Ontariens, bilingual Québécois from Gatineau, or anglophone Ottawans with lifelong exposure to French through family or friends.

And the former specialized positions I would assume tend to be the ones that are English only.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

No, not in everyday's life. You'll see lots of English words in advertisement, in the media, in silly business talk, etc, but the way people speak in the street, they don't use all these English words. The Québécois use far more English words on a casual base, and it always grates on European ears. Also, the Québécois have this way of pronouncing English words like the Anglophones, complete with perfect English r, which seems very unnatural to European ears. In Europe you would sound very pedantic if you pronounced English words the way the Québécois do it (i.e. the way North American English speakers do it).

Met up with some chums yesterday who are les français living on the Plateau and they didn't agree there's less use of Anglicismes back home in France, especially with the younger generations.

You are correct though, many urban Québécois do pronounce Anglicismes with a perfect English accent, but that's more a function of many Québécois being comfortably bilingual. In the regions where bilingualism is less prevalent, I've noticed the Anglicismes are pronounced with a heavier French accent like with my in-laws.

[MolsonExport]

It's an officially bilingual country, as inconvenient as that may seem to some uni-lingual folk that are seeking certain positions in the federal government apparatus. In many careers, an education is required in subjects that may be rarely if ever used. For example, despite the fact that I teach courses in statistics from time to time, I have not used Calculus, Trigonometry, Geometry, Econometrics, and Bayesian Mathematics ever in my career (although it does help having some exposure, when reading certain academic journal articles).

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yeah, I suppose specialized jobs like climate scientists or fish population specialists tilt towards people from outside the capital region, whereas the interchangeable jobs are held more by locals, often Franco-Ontariens, bilingual Québécois from Gatineau, or anglophone Ottawans with lifelong exposure to French through family or friends.

And the former specialized positions I would assume tend to be the ones that are English only.

And I find some of the resentment from Francophones inside the public service, is because they didn't actually understand this. They often assume barriers are because of language, where often the barrier is simply qualification.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

It's an officially bilingual country, as inconvenient as that may seem to some uni-lingual folk that are seeking certain positions in the federal government apparatus. In many careers, an education is required in subjects that may be rarely if ever used. For example, despite the fact that I teach courses in statistics from time to time, I have not used Calculus, Trigonometry, Geometry, Econometrics, and Bayesian Mathematics ever in my career (although it does help having some exposure, when reading certain academic journal articles).

The problem isn't that we demand bilingualism of the public service. It's that we don't offer sufficient opportunities to become bilingual, and that is what drives the perception of unfairness. Career advancement should not depend on your boss liking you enough and just useless enough that they are willing to get you on language training. If we believe in bilingualism (and I do) than we should do a lot more to give people the opportunities to be bilingual and not use bilingualism as a barrier (which is how it is currently employed).

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

And I find some of the resentment from Francophones inside the public service, is because they didn't actually understand this. They often assume barriers are because of language, where often the barrier is simply qualification.

Well in the writing is the qualification part of the civil service it is absolutley harder for a Francophone. Previously they were given preference (different than actually judging them on French writing rather than English which would be fair). With the recent focus on Employent equity a lot of Francophones are complaining they have much higher failure rates in higher level competitions. I guess some of this is Anglohpones being more diverse than Francophones but some is the bias against anyone who can't write perfectly in English wheras there is no such bias for Anglophones.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Well in the writing is the qualification part of the civil service it is absolutley harder for a Francophone. Previously they were given preference (different than actually judging them on French writing rather than English which would be fair). With the recent focus on Employent equity a lot of Francophones are complaining they have much higher failure rates in higher level competitions. I guess some of this is Anglohpones being more diverse than Francophones but some is the bias against anyone who can't write perfectly in English wheras there is no such bias for Anglophones.

If so, it's a bit of a reversal from how things were say 25 years ago. The tests in English were widely perceived to be less demanding than those in French, to the point that the French tests were made less difficult. I've never known for sure, but I suspect that is why I got my E after the testing was revised.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Well in the writing is the qualification part of the civil service it is absolutley harder for a Francophone. Previously they were given preference (different than actually judging them on French writing rather than English which would be fair). With the recent focus on Employent equity a lot of Francophones are complaining they have much higher failure rates in higher level competitions. I guess some of this is Anglohpones being more diverse than Francophones but some is the bias against anyone who can't write perfectly in English wheras there is no such bias for Anglophones.

Complaints from francophones about not getting jobs due to English language requirements are not something I hear very much at all from people in the federal public service these days. (Language-related complaints from francophones already in the public service generally focus on not being able to use French at work and having English imposed as the only language, not that they get passed over for jobs because their English isn't good enough.)

What I do hear are complaints from people in both Gatineau and Ottawa, both francophone and anglophone, about diversity hires who may not have the qualifications for their jobs, and who get hired over non-diversity people who do.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Complaints from francophones about not getting jobs due to English language requirements are not something I hear very much at all from people in the federal public service these days. (Language-related complaints from francophones already in the public service generally focus on not being able to use French at work and having English imposed as the only language, not that they get passed over for jobs because their English isn't good enough.)

What I do hear are complaints from people in both Gatineau and Ottawa, both francophone and anglophone, about diversity hires who may not have the qualifications for their jobs, and who get hired over non-diversity people who do.

If that happens, hiring has really changed. Step one was always needing to demonstrate that you met the Statement of Qualifications for the position.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

If so, it's a bit of a reversal from how things were say 25 years ago. The tests in English were widely perceived to be less demanding than those in French, to the point that the French tests were made less difficult. I've never known for sure, but I suspect that is why I got my E after the testing was revised.

Sorry I wasn't clear. I am talking about exams to be promoted to say EX-1.

I certainly agree that a C level English makes you more fluent than a C level in French. Some of this is a focus on grammar that is of course more important in French but also a mentality. In English if you aren't clearly communicating ideas than you aren't getting a C wheras in French use subjunctive properly, linking words and get the basic idea across you can pass.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Complaints from francophones about not getting jobs due to English language requirements are not something I hear very much at all from people in the federal public service these days. (Language-related complaints from francophones already in the public service generally focus on not being able to use French at work and having English imposed as the only language, not that they get passed over for jobs because their English isn't good enough.)

What I do hear are complaints from people in both Gatineau and Ottawa, both francophone and anglophone, about diversity hires who may not have the qualifications for their jobs, and who get hired over non-diversity people who do.

I do a lot but it is mixed with the diversity hire complaints and might be because only Francophones are brave enough to publicly call out diversity hires. White male Anglophones mostly keep their head down and women generally benefit. Francophones rightly point out the inherant disadvanatge you have working in your second language. So as Truenorth says if you are a lawyer negotiainting contracts with Aeropace companies you are at a disadvantage. This would also be true for international work generally as it's mostly done in English.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

If so, it's a bit of a reversal from how things were say 25 years ago. The tests in English were widely perceived to be less demanding than those in French, to the point that the French tests were made less difficult. I've never known for sure, but I suspect that is why I got my E after the testing was revised.

Another good reason to junk our tests and adopt some international standard. We've had lots of complaints this year that the French tests are substantially harder than last year. And I found the same myself. I don't trust the objectivity of the folks that develop our tests.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

So as Truenorth says if you are a lawyer negotiainting contracts with Aeropace companies you are at a disadvantage. This would also be true for international work generally as it's mostly done in English.

It's always been interesting to me that every NATO meeting, exercise and course I've been to is in English. Likewise, when I was on a project dealing with Airbus, every engineer and exec we dealt with was perfectly fluent in English. I do think Francophones sometimes forget this is just part of the reality of the working world. The requirement to do all this work in English wouldn't change if Quebec became independent. The only jobs that would really change are all those bilingual customer service jobs which would probably just become French essential.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It's always been interesting to me that every NATO meeting, exercise and course I've been to is in English. Likewise, when I was on a project dealing with Airbus, every engineer and exec we dealt with was perfectly fluent in English. I do think Francophones sometimes forget this is just part of the reality of the working world. The requirement to do all this work in English wouldn't change if Quebec became independent. The only jobs that would really change are all those bilingual customer service jobs which would probably just become French essential.

I have some sympathy. Their parents and governments purposely kept them from learning English. The idea French and English have equal status is a lie we tell ourselves. Conversely Anglophones don't understand you need to speak French in government because we are the government of all Canadians and millions of us don't speak English. English Canada thinks they are only pretending but even well educated Francophones can be uncomfortable in Englsh. This suprises Europeans I tell as well. Especially from the smaller langauges of Europe where English is now ubiquotuous.


Actually it's very possible independance increases the need for English. Canada would quickly demand our interactions be in English and soon be incapable of doing most of them in French. A Quebec military might become unilingual but if you are approving drugs, certifying airplanes it would be harder to demand bilingualism as the size of the market shrinks. French is stil a major language for world products but a lot of our market is North America only and could easily see French being dropped.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I have
Actually it's very possible independance increases the need for English. Canada would quickly demand our interactions be in English and soon be incapable of doing most of them in French. A Quebec military might become unilingual but if you are approving drugs, certifying airplanes it would be harder to demand bilingualism as the size of the market shrinks. French is stil a major language for world products but a lot of our market is North America only and could easily see French being dropped.

We have a test of market access coming up with recent consumer regulations that will require consumer items sold in Quebec to be labeled in French. Will be interesting to see what brands stay and what brands leave.

On the military, the units in Québec are all French essential, with rare exceptions made for jobs which might be hard to fill (can be hard to get fighter pilots with CBC for Bagottville). So nothing much world change there.

The only way I see in an independent scenario to really avoid needing a surge of English competency in their government would be delegate a ton of things to France. Maybe that's why our friend is here pushing separatism.