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  #1341  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2024, 9:13 PM
Myst Myst is offline
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Location, location, location.

I can’t really see many wanting to resurrect YMX. I do favour concentrating on one airport, as YUL/YMX and YEG/YXD have shown why. But at some point a second airport becomes a good idea and complements as much as competes. YHU isn’t a bad idea. The fact it’s not run by ADM makes them not like it. If it was run by ADM I suspect they’d have a very different tune. I don’t know if it is better to have competing interests and competing plans, or one organization running both…
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  #1342  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2024, 2:40 AM
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Originally Posted by thenoflyzone View Post
30 to 40% pay raise in the first year, and they voted no.

Hope they know what they are doing.
Idiots.
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  #1343  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2024, 10:29 AM
Djeffery Djeffery is offline
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Yep, the outsiders look at pay and think that solves everything else and call them idiots without bothering to see if there might be legit reasons for why they are going on strike.
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  #1344  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2024, 12:51 PM
J81 J81 is offline
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Originally Posted by craner View Post
Idiots.
Thats rich! Calling an entire group of people idiots without knowing a single one or their issues. Maybe money isnt the problem. Maybe theyre happy with the raise but everything else in the contract is garbage. Working conditions and benefits are in fact important as well.
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  #1345  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2024, 3:17 PM
Dominion301 Dominion301 is offline
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WS and the union agree to go back to the bargaining table averting a strike for now.

https://www.newswire.ca/news-release...896410177.html

Quote:
With respect to WestJet's request for arbitration, the CIRB has advised it will require additional time and submissions from both parties before making a decision on whether or not collective bargaining for our first agreement should be resolved by way of arbitration.

In the meantime, the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association (AMFA) has rescinded its strike notice, with both parties jointly agreeing to return to the bargaining table to continue work towards finding a resolution.
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  #1346  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2024, 3:20 PM
Ozabald Ozabald is offline
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Originally Posted by thenoflyzone View Post
They do. I don't think it's finalized yet, but once it is, it should be published on the website. The last master plan dates back to 2013, so they're due.

They came up with a plan in 2018 (this one, slide 15/16 have good renderings), but quickly abandoned it once they realized the access roads weren't enough.

They announced a new plan last April (this one), and the rendering clearly shows an expanded road network leading to the terminal.

No official document of the plan so far, but it should come out soon I guess.



The footprint of YUL (plus the runway layout) is similar in size and shape to that of LHR, and Heathrow handled 79 million passengers and over 450,000 movements last year. So the footprint is not the problem. How they develop(ed) that footprint, is. So far, their plans were garbage. They seem to be on the right track to rectify it. Let's see.

It doesn't help that Air Canada and Bombardier are sitting on prime real estate, in the middle of both runways. So YUL will never be able to handle 80 million passengers. But it doesn't need to either. A terminal building capable of handling 40-50 million passengers will serve Montreal's needs for the foreseeable future.

Runway layout and capacity isn't a problem. Plenty of room there for additional capacity.



You'd need to inject a ton of money at YMX to make it a viable replacement for YUL. Significantly more money than at YUL. It's not going to happen. ADM made their bed at YUL, now they have to sleep in it.
Thanks for the insight. I guess if YUL ever exceeds 50M passengers, then a potential new airport site could be on the table.
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  #1347  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2024, 12:01 AM
hehehe hehehe is offline
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Originally Posted by Dominion301 View Post
WS and the union agree to go back to the bargaining table averting a strike for now.

https://www.newswire.ca/news-release...896410177.html
I guess the government's decision to delay making a decision on binding mediation forced WS to back off of their aggressive tough guy approach with the union and actually negotiate in good faith.
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  #1348  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2024, 1:07 AM
Dominion301 Dominion301 is offline
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Originally Posted by hehehe View Post
I guess the government's decision to delay making a decision on binding mediation forced WS to back off of their aggressive tough guy approach with the union and actually negotiate in good faith.
They actually wanted to force/impose binding arbitration. Highly unlikely that the CIRB would/will ever approve that imposition without first having a union membership vote on that, especially with a near-unanimous NO vote.
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  #1349  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2024, 2:37 AM
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Nicko999 Nicko999 is offline
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Originally Posted by Ozabald View Post
Could YMX ever be revived to become the main airport for Montreal?
That is the only viable option. It doesn't even have to cost an insane amount of money. Build a small terminal that is easily expandable and go from there. You already have a runway, a tower.

Like thenoflyzone said however, ADM made the decision to stick with YUL which is 100% the incorrect one.

YMX has the potential still to become Montreal's main airport but as long as those clowns at ADM operate it, nothing will happen.

People might think I am a bit harsh on ADM but you have no idea how bad traffic is the summer months. Last year was about 1hr in traffic during peak time. YUL simply does not have enough space and the situation will keep worsening no matter what.
I am boycotting the airport this summer, it's time my fellow Montrealers wake up.
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  #1350  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2024, 2:41 AM
thenoflyzone thenoflyzone is offline
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Originally Posted by hollywoodcory View Post
YYC May 2024 Stats:

Domestic: 1,109,728 -0.3 (YTD 4,632,062 +1.14%)
Transborder: 301,102 +9.1% (YTD: 1,419,567 +11.95%)
International: 203,968 +20.7% (YTD: 1,015,957 +12.33%)

May 2024 Total: 1,614,798 +3.6%
2024 YTD: 7,067,586 +4.67%
YUL May 2024 stats:

Domestic: 590,024 -1.3%
Transborder: 452,904 +11.8%
International: 837,060 +13.3%

May Total: 1,879,988 +8.0%
2024 YTD: 8,588,860 +9.5%

https://www.admtl.com/sites/default/...Web_EN_Mai.pdf

Growth increased compared to April, which is a nice surpise. All signs were pointing to a continued decrease in growth rates.
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  #1351  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2024, 10:52 AM
YOWhopeful YOWhopeful is offline
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Originally Posted by Nicko999 View Post
That is the only viable option. It doesn't even have to cost an insane amount of money. Build a small terminal that is easily expandable and go from there. You already have a runway, a tower.

Like thenoflyzone said however, ADM made the decision to stick with YUL which is 100% the incorrect one.

YMX has the potential still to become Montreal's main airport but as long as those clowns at ADM operate it, nothing will happen.

People might think I am a bit harsh on ADM but you have no idea how bad traffic is the summer months. Last year was about 1hr in traffic during peak time. YUL simply does not have enough space and the situation will keep worsening no matter what.
I am boycotting the airport this summer, it's time my fellow Montrealers wake up.
How will you boycott YUL? Where will you fly from?
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  #1352  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2024, 11:46 AM
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harls harls is online now
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They are building a train line to the airport. Perhaps Nicko will survive.

He can also try out the shiny new St. Hubert too.
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  #1353  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2024, 2:03 PM
Dominion301 Dominion301 is offline
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Originally Posted by YOWhopeful View Post
How will you boycott YUL? Where will you fly from?
He’ll be the only Montrealer to do reverse leakage to YOW.

That’ll make for a nice 500,000:1 ratio.
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  #1354  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2024, 9:43 PM
zahav zahav is offline
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Originally Posted by Nicko999 View Post
That is the only viable option. It doesn't even have to cost an insane amount of money. Build a small terminal that is easily expandable and go from there. You already have a runway, a tower.

Like thenoflyzone said however, ADM made the decision to stick with YUL which is 100% the incorrect one.

YMX has the potential still to become Montreal's main airport but as long as those clowns at ADM operate it, nothing will happen.

People might think I am a bit harsh on ADM but you have no idea how bad traffic is the summer months. Last year was about 1hr in traffic during peak time. YUL simply does not have enough space and the situation will keep worsening no matter what.
I am boycotting the airport this summer, it's time my fellow Montrealers wake up.
You think ADM's decision to stick with YUL was wrong? It seems like the right decision to me, Mirabel was too damaged (reputation wise) at the time and YUL was closer to the city (a huge plus. And of course the transborder and domestic connections, with transborder especially proving to be a growth sector and hand in hand with international growth (ie. US pax to Europe via YUL). There is still room to expand, look at airports like Heathrow and Gatwick, and you can see how you can accomodate with limited resources (Heathrow is in a tight land base, but keeps increasing their capacity, Gatwick has over 40M pax with one runway ffs, YUL is able to accomodate (I don't know anything about ADMTL as an organization, so not commenting on their abilities to do it properly), but just that it was the right choice to keep YUL and grow it, and leave Mirabel until absolutely necessary. Hopefully they can smooth out the growing pains and handle the steady increases. It's a nice problem to have, too much demand. In a competitive world, most places biggest struggle is to grow and gain routes/carriers, if they can get that they will figure out the proper growth. Mirabel was the polar opposite, large facilities, newer, wide open space, but lacked the demand. I would much rather have the demand than the shiny empty terminal that cost a fortune and no one flies to...

The domestic declines continued in May at both YUL and YYC, still curious for me. Declines for 3 months straight for both (% declines shrunk for both in May, so could be a good sign, 3 months is hardly long enough to develop a trend). But at least the declines are not accelerating, so that's important. I just didn't realize domestic was weak right now in Canada, all indicators other than Lynx folding seemed to point to a healthy market. Porter expanding, AC expanding at its hubs, ditto for WS, Flair somehow still flying lol. Even the smaller, regional carriers like Air North (Yukon) and the various other Northern and Indigenous-focused airlines seem steady. I didn't think Lynx shutting down would have such a noticeable effect on stats, I don't think it did. The domestic declines at YUL don't seem like a big deal at all, it's no secret that it is weaker domestically, and even YUL boosters like AC don't put a ton of energy into domestic. So minor under 5% declines shouldn't raise any eyebrows, I was more curious is all. With their massive international and transborder growth, airlines are obviously allocating capacity the right way.

YYC also improved (ie. declined less) than the previous months. But because of WS's dominance in domestic, you can somewhat infer the health of their routes by the overall numbers. AC had already axed most of their routes by last May, so don't think there'd be much measurable change in their domestic pax year over year. Flair has a decent showing, but again, not sure how much they changed year to year. So the declines could point to weakness at WS domestically. I will be curious to see how the big international expansion affects domestic in the summer months, I know they really want to capture more market share with connections. WS is odd in that they have surprisingly strong transborder offerings from lots of airports, they don't seem to funnel pax through Calgary that much (and with the DL cooperation, they have decentralized YYC even more by codesharing with DL or vice versa in most of their airports in western Canada at least. This resulted in route pairings like YVR, YEG, and YWG to ATL, YVR to DTW, YXE and YQR to MSP. These were all recently added by WS on many routes previously served by DL, or some all out new additions. My point is, their transborder strategy seems to be much less hub-centric, and a lot more evenly spread. Of course there is still way more transborder from YYC and lots of people probably still connect there, but they offer a healthy # of destinations and frequency from lots of places they could easily force to connect in YYC if they really wanted to. But they saw the support and demand for more point to point transborder wise, and I think it was the right strategy. They massively increased their transborder direct connectivity all across their Western Canadian airports, and are the only game in town for transborder in many cases. Having no non-stop options to places like LAS or PHX would make people very disgruntled. Yet for domestic and international (for the most part), WS really uses YYC as a connection point for most Western airports. Ya they throw the standard CUN or PVR flights to most airports, but all of the more exotic sun destinations, and of course all Europe/Asia flights go through YYC, and most people understand that (Regina isn't delusional enough to think they would get Seoul, Barcelona, Rome, Belize, etc., so routing through YYC is understood as a reality. Same with the insane domestic offerings at YYC, just miles ahead of the other western airports, and why almost everyone Manitoba and west connect in YYC a ton when flying to points east.

This is all just a random musing, I haven't done the spreadsheets to empirically back it up. But just observing the scale of WS's transborder service in YYC vs. other west airports (# of unique destinations, frequency, as well as codesharing with DL because that should be factored in). Then comparing the transborder service levels to domestic and international, the difference is much less (again, YYC is still far above all other western airports for transborder, but to a smaller degree than their comparative lead in domestic and international service.
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  #1355  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2024, 1:59 AM
hehehe hehehe is offline
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Originally Posted by zahav View Post
YYC also improved (ie. declined less) than the previous months. But because of WS's dominance in domestic, you can somewhat infer the health of their routes by the overall numbers. AC had already axed most of their routes by last May, so don't think there'd be much measurable change in their domestic pax year over year. Flair has a decent showing, but again, not sure how much they changed year to year. So the declines could point to weakness at WS domestically.
I think Lynx's demise and significant Flair reductions might have caused YYC's flat/slight decline in domestic. It might point to WS weakness but this March/April/May their domestic capacity wasn't that much higher than the previous year I think.

But yeah it's great to see more P2P routes like YXE/YQR-MSP, YWG/YVR/YEG-ATL and YVR-DTW.
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  #1356  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2024, 2:43 AM
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But yeah it's great to see more P2P routes like YXE/YQR-MSP, YWG/YVR/YEG-ATL and YVR-DTW.
Not really P2P... All of the routes you listed above are feeding to DL's hub, so it's still hub and spoke, with YXE/YQR/YWG/YVR/YEG being the spoke.
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  #1357  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2024, 3:19 AM
Justanothermember Justanothermember is offline
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Not really P2P... All of the routes you listed above are feeding to DL's hub, so it's still hub and spoke, with YXE/YQR/YWG/YVR/YEG being the spoke.
I think the point he is trying to make is that these WS routes are P2P without using Calgary as a hub, acting independent of YYC.
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  #1358  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2024, 5:02 AM
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Originally Posted by YOWhopeful View Post
How will you boycott YUL? Where will you fly from?
I did fly from YUL in April. No issues in the shoulder months, I am boycotting the summer months of June, July and August.
A couple of years ago, I did drive to Burlington (VT) and flew to JFK. From there you can fly anywhere in the US really. I was going to Florida then so it was convenient. Ticket was about 20% cheaper and parking fare at BTV was not unreasonable. Even with the 90 minutes drive, it was worth it. It's close to the time you will be waste trying to get to YUL anyway.

I would do it again if I needed to fly to the US in the warmer months. I am not even kidding, I wouldn't have to leave much earlier than if I was flying from YUL since you have at least an hour in traffic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by zahav View Post
You think ADM's decision to stick with YUL was wrong? It seems like the right decision to me, Mirabel was too damaged (reputation wise) at the time and YUL was closer to the city (a huge plus. And of course the transborder and domestic connections, with transborder especially proving to be a growth sector and hand in hand with international growth (ie. US pax to Europe via YUL). There is still room to expand, look at airports like Heathrow and Gatwick, and you can see how you can accomodate with limited resources (Heathrow is in a tight land base, but keeps increasing their capacity, Gatwick has over 40M pax with one runway ffs, YUL is able to accomodate (I don't know anything about ADMTL as an organization, so not commenting on their abilities to do it properly), but just that it was the right choice to keep YUL and grow it, and leave Mirabel until absolutely necessary. Hopefully they can smooth out the growing pains and handle the steady increases. It's a nice problem to have, too much demand. In a competitive world, most places biggest struggle is to grow and gain routes/carriers, if they can get that they will figure out the proper growth. Mirabel was the polar opposite, large facilities, newer, wide open space, but lacked the demand. I would much rather have the demand than the shiny empty terminal that cost a fortune and no one flies to...
It was the wrong decision and it is becoming more and more obvious by the day. YUL is growing now but the infrastructure surrounding it is not made for more than 25M passengers annually. Shoulder months are fine for now but as soon as the airport serves more than 2M passengers a month (July, August), it becomes absolute chaos with traffic.
Just because people preferred YUL over YMX at that time because of its proximity to the city does not mean it is the correct thing to do. Managers/operators are supposed to look at the long-term when making such decisions. Force the population to use YMX. Unpopular, yes but I like to say short-term pain for long-term gain. Ask those people TODAY if they will drive to Mirabel instead if they had the options. You will get much difference responses than 30 years ago.

What do you think will happen to YUL after a couple of chaotic summers? Montrealers will start to look for alternatives eventually and it will be reflected in the numbers. Dorval will plateau at about 30M in a few years and will stay there. YHU would not be a big enough terminal to relieve anything.
YMX could have had 30M passengers by now with plenty of room to grow and there wouldn't have been any need for YUL.
But when mistakes are made, you will be stuck with smallish airport with extremely limited capacity to grow. That is what incompetence leads to... it is what it is.



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  #1359  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2024, 12:09 AM
hehehe hehehe is offline
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Originally Posted by Justanothermember View Post
I think the point he is trying to make is that these WS routes are P2P without using Calgary as a hub, acting independent of YYC.
Haha yeah oops that's what I meant
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  #1360  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2024, 4:49 PM
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hollywoodcory hollywoodcory is offline
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WS expands its interline agreement with DE into a codeshare. WS code placed on DE flights to FRA / and DE added code on WS domestic/US flights.
https://www.westjet.com/en-ca/news/2...-canadian-citi

---

Also WS has already begun making changes to S25, including one new route.

NEW:
Effective April 27, 2025:
WS1611 YYC 10:30 - 14:12 MSP 737 D
WS1610 MSP 15:15 - 17:12 YYC 737 D

YVR-SNA has either been removed/or wasn't loaded when the schedule got extended. Shows until April 26.
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