Atlantic Canada airport thread

[Taeolas]

Eyeballing Google Maps, the longer runway at YFC could theoretically be extended to 3000m, but it would be a tight fit before it bumps into Nevers Road. Currently it seems to have a 300m buffer at the end, so its theoretical maximum length is probably more like 2700m (which would just be long enough for those Airbuses).

The shorter runway actually seems to have a lot of space to expand. It's currently about 1800m but it could easily reach 2500m by going eastward towards Route 102. Combined with going westward towards Freddy, it could reach 3500m with decent buffers, long before it reaches Nevers road or Route 102. (unless there are topology reasons to prevent it, but I can't imagine there would be). In fact, looking closer at Google Maps, it looks like there is one stream that would have to be bridged/culverted, but otherwise the land is already mostly cleared and there is already an access road already going along most of the length.

*Edit* Looking at YSJ, its closer runway is pretty constrained but it's other runway, while short, has lots of room for extension if/when the need comes up.

For YQM, the runway parallel to the airport is constrained by the roads now, as noted. But its second runway could probably be extended easily up to 3500m with relatively little effort. They might need to take over a few lots along the way, (looks like a lumber yard and a few other small industries) but no major developments along that path.

And if they ever needed a REALLY long runway, they could bisect the angle and get a runway that could be up to 4250m before it reaches the TCH. (I can't imagine them ever needing it, but the potential is certainly there)

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

For YQM, the runway parallel to the airport is constrained by the roads now, as noted. But its second runway could probably be extended easily up to 3500m with relatively little effort. They might need to take over a few lots along the way, (looks like a lumber yard and a few other small industries) but no major developments along that path.

06/24's main advantages for YQM are (1) it is the runway closest to the terminal, and, would speed departures because less taxiing is necessary and (2) departing flights pass over the western fringes of Dieppe rather than directly over the core the the metro areas population, limiting noise complaints.

I imagine these are the reasons why 06/24 was chosen for lengthening rather than 11/29. That, and because it was already the longer runway, therefore would be cheaper to get to 10,000 ft.

[sailor734]

Direction and orientation to prevailing winds enters into the equation as well.

https://metroairports.org/sites/default/files/2021-09/factsheet-4_how_are_runway_decisions_made.pdf

[sailor734]

Some pretty funny reactions to WestJet's new "Ultra Basic fare.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/westjet-ultrabasic-fare-1.7227809

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Some pretty funny reactions to WestJet's new "Ultra Basic fare.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/westjet-ultrabasic-fare-1.7227809

Yeesh. I’m starting to think more and more that Porter really is the best hope for competition in the Canadian airline market, at least in terms of getting Air Canada and West Jet to smarten up. Air Canada is way too focussed on business travellers and lounges with luxury amenities than they are about making their service more affordable and accessible to Canadians, and people wanting to travel to Canada. The luxury lounges are just icing on the cake, they're not really an incentive for people to use Air Canada, and they're sure not helping lower prices to regular consumers

I still think we have a lot of room for ULCCs to shake up the market and provide lower cost travel options for Canadians and Americans looking to take budget vacations. Moreover, the federal and provincial governments need to look more seriously at subsidizing flights into less populated regions like NB… but damn do we ever need more competition for Air Canada and West Jet to get real. West Jet rightly deserves a he mocked and ridiculed over this.

Still appreciate their CEO’s attempt to rekindle the idea of combing airports in NB, though.

[J81]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Runway 06/24 at YQM is essentially as long as they could possibly make it. It is limited by the TCH to the NE and Champlain Street to the SW.

I recall when they extended this runway about a decade ago or so, they made damned sure to make the runway as long as possible to deal with the "heavies."

06/24 is just shy of 10,000 ft.

It’s actually 10001’ long.

[J81]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

Looks like it is runway length. A few quick googles says YFC's two runways are 1829m and 2440m.

Similar googling says Airbus-330's need 2500m; so YFC is about 60m short. (more realistically it's probably about 500m short to add a bit of safety).

Moncton's longest runway is 3048m, so it is long enough. (It's second runway is only 2438m so that would do for landing but not for takeoffs)

8010’ is plenty for an A330 at the kind of weights they would operate this mission on. YQM has always been used to transport soldiers and equipment from CFB Gagetown to overseas missions. Chartered 747s and DC10s were utilized on these missions regularly long before YQM ever extended 06/24 and 11/29 was the primary runway at 8000ft.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Yeesh. I’m starting to think more and more that Porter really is the best hope for competition in the Canadian airline market, at least in terms of getting Air Canada and West Jet to smarten up. Air Canada is way too focussed on business travellers and lounges with impressive views and luxury amenities (like they have at SFO with a million dollar view of the Golden Gate Bridge) than they are about making their service more affordable and accessible to Canadians, and people wanting to travel to Canada. The luxury lounges are just icing on the cake, they're not really an incentive for people to use Air Canada, and they're sure not helping lower prices to regular consumers

I still think we have a lot of room for ULCCs to shake up the market and provide lower cost travel options for Canadians and Americans looking to take budget vacations. Moreover, the federal and provincial governments need to look more seriously at subsidizing flights into less populated regions like NB… but damn do we ever need more competition for Air Canada and West Jet to get real. West Jet rightly deserves a he mocked and ridiculed over this.

Still appreciate their CEO’s attempt to rekindle the idea of combing airports in NB, though.

Don't think there's a million dollar view of the Golden Gate Bridge from the AC Lounge at SFO as one cannot view the GGB from SFO. I would argue that AC has made air travel more accessible to Canadians given the number of locations they fly within Canada. It is AC which flies into small centres such as Comox, Castlegar, Prince Rupert, etc.

Regarding WestJet's new Basic fare, you do realize Porter has had a similar fare category since day one. Porter Basic doesn't allow a carry-on.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

Don't think there's a million dollar view of the Golden Gate Bridge from the AC Lounge at SFO as one cannot view the GGB from SFO. I would argue that AC has made air travel more accessible to Canadians given the number of locations they fly within Canada. It is AC which flies into small centres such as Comox, Castlegar, Prince Rupert, etc.

Regarding WestJet's new Basic fare, you do realize Porter has had a similar fare category since day one. Porter Basic doesn't allow a carry-on.

I stand corrected, . I read that the other day on another AC forum, but see it was now a joke, that went straight over my head. I've only flew into SFO once, and I should have remembered it's nowhere near the Golden Gate Bridge.

Yeah, I realize Porter has quite a lot of budget aspects to their pricing model, but they are still the best bet to actually compete with AC and WestJet for now.

ULCC definitely play a role in the overall price competition too, though.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

Don't think there's a million dollar view of the Golden Gate Bridge from the AC Lounge at SFO as one cannot view the GGB from SFO. I would argue that AC has made air travel more accessible to Canadians given the number of locations they fly within Canada. It is AC which flies into small centres such as Comox, Castlegar, Prince Rupert, etc.

Regarding WestJet's new Basic fare, you do realize Porter has had a similar fare category since day one. Porter Basic doesn't allow a carry-on.

I'd also hardly call Air Canada's Maple Leaf lounges "luxury"

Although, the one in Calgary is actually pretty nice in comparison to other ML locations. I'm told that's only because of AC trying to lure away some of WestJet's business clientele flying from WJ's home base. Apparently Calgary business travelers overwhelmingly support the "home team" and AC put a drive on a few years ago to try and win some over.

[Taeolas]

Well for my summer vacation this year, I'm planning to head out to Edmonton to visit my sister. I was checking flights from YFC and YQM on all 3 airlines, and I ultimately decided on Porter.

Prices were comparable, and the difference between YFC and YQM would have been eaten up by 2 weeks worth of parking at YQM and gas prices to drive down there (vs a taxi trip out and back to YFC).

I was first comparing AC vs Westjet, and did try to get Westjet to work, but the schedules just weren't nice for the days I was looking at (and the prices that were available.). I think I had looked at Porter briefly at first and dismissed it, but decided to go back and I'm glad I did (and even managed to snag a sale price). All in all, round trip prices to Edmonton and back in late July came out to around 700$ (after I did the checked bag and seat pick 'upgrades'). Oh and no Boeing planes either.

So yeah, from my very limited point of view, Porter is pretty firmly established as Canada's 3rd major airline and probably has a good chance of swapping positions with Westjet for second place the way things are going.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

Well for my summer vacation this year, I'm planning to head out to Edmonton to visit my sister. I was checking flights from YFC and YQM on all 3 airlines, and I ultimately decided on Porter.

Prices were comparable, and the difference between YFC and YQM would have been eaten up by 2 weeks worth of parking at YQM and gas prices to drive down there (vs a taxi trip out and back to YFC).

I was first comparing AC vs Westjet, and did try to get Westjet to work, but the schedules just weren't nice for the days I was looking at (and the prices that were available.). I think I had looked at Porter briefly at first and dismissed it, but decided to go back and I'm glad I did (and even managed to snag a sale price). All in all, round trip prices to Edmonton and back in late July came out to around 700$ (after I did the checked bag and seat pick 'upgrades'). Oh and no Boeing planes either.

So yeah, from my very limited point of view, Porter is pretty firmly established as Canada's 3rd major airline and probably has a good chance of swapping positions with Westjet for second place the way things are going.

Hard to tell as Porter is privately held but the rapid pace of their expansion does create a bit of a nagging worry for me. Hope they don't become a case of "tried to get too big, too fast"

As an aside family member is flying into YQM on AC today from YVR. When she booked in March flying AC into YSJ was $1200+ return while YQM was $485 all in

[Taeolas]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Hard to tell as Porter is privately held but the rapid pace of their expansion does create a bit of a nagging worry for me. Hope they don't become a case of "tried to get too big, too fast"

As an aside family member is flying into YQM on AC today from YVR. When she booked in March flying AC into YSJ was $1200+ return while YQM was $485 all in

For me when I was comparing prices and dates, YQM to Calgary or Edmonton was about 500$+, while YFC to Edmonton or Calgary was usually around 600$+.

When I factored in 90 minutes driving each way (and some of the options were either red eyes or early morning flights which wasn't appealing for a long drive) and 1-2 weeks worth of long term parking at YQM, the "savings" were not worth it. Sure I'll still have 30-40$ taxi each way to YFC, and I'm still taking the red eye back home, but my dead-tired 🞵🞵🞵 won't be doing the driving.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by sailor734

I'd also hardly call Air Canada's Maple Leaf lounges "luxury"

Although, the one in Calgary is actually pretty nice in comparison to other ML locations. I'm told that's only because of AC trying to lure away some of WestJet's business clientele flying from WJ's home base. Apparently Calgary business travelers overwhelmingly support the "home team" and AC put a drive on a few years ago to try and win some over.

I agree the AC Maple Lounges are not luxury; especially the ones in the domestic areas of YYZ, YUL, YVR. Haven't been in the lounges located in the transborder and international areas of those airports. Have to say the two nicest AC lounges are YOW and YYT. Not surprisingly about YOW given the number of government travellers. The lounge at YYT; though small, is fairly new. It has a fresh and modern feel with nice finishings and furniture. They even do a nod to Newfoundland cuisine. Travel through in the morning and there are toutons available for breakfast.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

I agree the AC Maple Lounges are not luxury; especially the ones in the domestic areas of YYZ, YUL, YVR. Haven't been in the lounges located in the transborder and international areas of those airports. Have to say the two nicest AC lounges are YOW and YYT. Not surprisingly about YOW given the number of government travellers. The lounge at YYT; though small, is fairly new. It has a fresh and modern feel with nice finishings and furniture. They even do a nod to Newfoundland cuisine. Travel through in the morning and there are toutons available for breakfast.

Last time I went through Calgary they were grilling Alberta beef sliders for lunch......and the bartender (yes they have bartenders) made a pretty good 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 mary.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

I agree the AC Maple Lounges are not luxury; especially the ones in the domestic areas of YYZ, YUL, YVR. Haven't been in the lounges located in the transborder and international areas of those airports. Have to say the two nicest AC lounges are YOW and YYT. Not surprisingly about YOW given the number of government travellers. The lounge at YYT; though small, is fairly new. It has a fresh and modern feel with nice finishings and furniture. They even do a nod to Newfoundland cuisine. Travel through in the morning and there are toutons available for breakfast.

If only a select group of people who pay extra to them can access them, then I’d say they’re a luxury by definition. Just like a first class ticket is a luxury.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Hard to tell as Porter is privately held but the rapid pace of their expansion does create a bit of a nagging worry for me. Hope they don't become a case of "tried to get too big, too fast"

Porter's expansion has not been instantaneous. It was carefully planned over a number of years and implemented gradually, factoring in the lead time for delivery of their new E195-E2s. There are still another 15-20 of them to come (with purchase rights for another 25, depending on how things go). The airline isn't run by rookies, and they're in it for the long game.

[sailor734]

Last I read they had 32 E195-E2's with 18 to come.....and the additional 25 had been moved from option status to firm order. That gives them 75 by 2027 (I think)

The 195-E2's lack of significant orders from US carriers has (I expect) resulted in Porter getting attractive pricing. One article I read suggested they were around 60 million vs 90 for the A220. The E175-E2 has failed to generate any US orders at all (US regionals can't fly them) so I expect that would have increased pressure on Embraer to cut pricing to get sales.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by sailor734

(US regionals can't fly them)

Why???

Federal regulations of some kind???

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Why???

Federal regulations of some kind???

Scope clause.(a part of the contract between mainline US carriers and their pilot unions that limits what the airline's regional affiliates can fly) The new E175-E2's exceed the max takeoff weight in the agreement. Embraer gambled that the clause would be modified before the new E175-E2 came to market........ It wasn't.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scope_clause

Apparently the E195-E2 hasn't sold as well as it might have as the A220 has something like a 1,000 mile range advantage........and Airbus is able to offer package deals involving the A220 and the A320neo