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  #1501  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2024, 6:23 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonGoldenTri View Post
With the Moncton FUA around 250,000 and likely growing by 12,000+ annually the Moncton FUA should be breaking 300,000 in 4 years!!!
The Halifax-Moncton corridor must be close to 1 million people now. I would imagine Truro will soon hit 50,000 too.
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  #1502  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2024, 6:29 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonGoldenTri View Post
I would love to see the breakdown of all the communities.

With the Moncton FUA around 250,000 and likely growing by 12,000+ annually the Moncton FUA should be breaking 300,000 in 4 years!!! With 30 years of momentum behind Moncton it feels like the city's on the cusp of unprecedented accelerated growth. Once the plethora of high rise buildings are completed in the next 3-10 years the city will be completely unrecognizable, especially downtown. The downtown's usable/walkable area is set to double, even triple in the next 8-12 years. Our excessive surface parking has been both a curse but a blessing for growth. I'm glad the city never developed the surface parking into boring 4-6 story building. We could potentially be flirting with an FUA of 550,000+ by 2050 (26 years x 12,000 = 312,000)
A FUA the combined current size of Regina and Saskatoon for Moncton alone would be quite extraordinary by 2050. Hopefully NB can keep the growth sustained in the coming decades and make it happen.

If Saint John and Fredericton could turn the joint airport idea into reality, we could potentially see a FUA of 650,000+ by 2050 with an aerotropolis at its centre by 2050. Sounds a little fantastical, but you never know.

If global warming continues to intensify, NB will have one of the nicest climates in Canada, and Canada will be getting more climate refugees than any other country. Oh what the future may behold…
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  #1503  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2024, 6:58 PM
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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
The Halifax-Moncton corridor must be close to 1 million people now. I would imagine Truro will soon hit 50,000 too.
It wouldn't surprise me to start seeing some decent sized projects in Truro in the next decade, especially if Cape Breton continues to grow.

At what population does Truro become a logistical center, similar to Moncton?
50,000-60,000 was roughly Moncton's population when rumblings of making Moncton the Maritime hub aka the Maritimes logistical city.

It will happen as some point as Moncton-Halifax continues their explosive growth.
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  #1504  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2024, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn View Post
A FUA the combined current size of Regina and Saskatoon for Moncton alone would be quite extraordinary by 2050. Hopefully NB can keep the growth sustained in the coming decades and make it happen.

If Saint John and Fredericton could turn the joint airport idea into reality, we could potentially see a FUA of 650,000+ by 2050 with an aerotropolis at its centre by 2050. Sounds a little fantastical, but you never know.

If global warming continues to intensify, NB will have one of the nicest climates in Canada, and Canada will be getting more climate refugees than any other country. Oh what the future may behold…
Perhaps, but their combined projected FUA growth is roughly 9,000 per year. 26 x 9,000 = 234,000. 234,000 + current combined FUA of 299,273 = 533,273. Lets be nice an add an additional 1,000 per year = 26,000 which increases the FUA to 559,273 which would be identical to Moncton's projected FUA in 2050. Unless something drastic happens with Saint John/Fredericton's strategy I don't see 650,000+ happening by 2050. They would need to increase their growth rate by 56%, to 14,000 annually to reach that goal. Obviously this is just fun & games and nothing's that linear but that's what the numbers are projecting.

I know the airport is a pipe dream that "could" help but maybe not. A project that size takes a long time to plan and get approval plus another 5-10 years to complete, for now it's just an idea with no legs to stand on. It also doesn't help that statistically Fredericton + Saint John combined passenger air traffic is less then Moncton, therefore we know ticket price improvements will be marginal at best. Don't forget the Moncton Airport services most of northern NB, not just their FUA and the prices here aren't any better except for a few direct flights. If passengers don't get cheaper tickets then what's the point? Even "IF" Moncton's was included in this project the combined passenger air traffic is still 1/3 compared to Halifax, would we even see any price improvements ? likely marginal at best.

From a logistics/distribution point of view the biggest issue they face is that Halifax and Moncton are firmly established as the Maritimes logistical/distribution centers (Walmart, Amazon etc) and they would likely lose most bids to attract major corporations over those 2 cities. By the time this project would be hypothetically completed Moncton and Halifax's logistical/distribution footprint will have likely doubled, how can they compete? Does the Maritimes really need a 3rd distribution/logistical center with the current population? Eventually all of the Major maritime cities will likely have their own distribution/logistical centers but that's a good 40+ years away and until then we likely don't need a 3rd one.

I see two major problems with the airport idea:
1. You won't get cheaper tickets except for a few outlier/direct flights.
2. It's likely to lose most bids VS Halifax/Moncton for distribution/commerce/logistical center deals.
Conclusion: if you're not getting cheaper tickets or barely boosting commerce, what's the point?

Eventually all three NB cities will have large airports as their populations increase, it's just going to take longer than anyone wants. Tax dollars are better spent elsewhere. If SJ ever got that pipeline that would be a significant boost, and if the conservatives(Federal) get in power next who knows? That's likely SJ's golden ticket to economic prosperity.
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  #1505  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2024, 12:33 AM
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Originally Posted by MonctonGoldenTri View Post
Perhaps, but their combined projected FUA growth is roughly 9,000 per year. 26 x 9,000 = 234,000. 234,000 + current combined FUA of 299,273 = 533,273. Lets be nice an add an additional 1,000 per year = 26,000 which increases the FUA to 559,273 which would be identical to Moncton's projected FUA in 2050. Unless something drastic happens with Saint John/Fredericton's strategy I don't see 650,000+ happening by 2050. They would need to increase their growth rate by 56%, to 14,000 annually to reach that goal. Obviously this is just fun & games and nothing's that linear but that's what the numbers are projecting.

I know the airport is a pipe dream that "could" help but maybe not. A project that size takes a long time to plan and get approval plus another 5-10 years to complete, for now it's just an idea with no legs to stand on. It also doesn't help that statistically Fredericton + Saint John combined passenger air traffic is less then Moncton, therefore we know ticket price improvements will be marginal at best. Don't forget the Moncton Airport services most of northern NB, not just their FUA and the prices here aren't any better except for a few direct flights. If passengers don't get cheaper tickets then what's the point? Even "IF" Moncton's was included in this project the combined passenger air traffic is still 1/3 compared to Halifax, would we even see any price improvements ? likely marginal at best.

From a logistics/distribution point of view the biggest issue they face is that Halifax and Moncton are firmly established as the Maritimes logistical/distribution centers (Walmart, Amazon etc) and they would likely lose most bids to attract major corporations over those 2 cities. By the time this project would be hypothetically completed Moncton and Halifax's logistical/distribution footprint will have likely doubled, how can they compete? Does the Maritimes really need a 3rd distribution/logistical center with the current population? Eventually all of the Major maritime cities will likely have their own distribution/logistical centers but that's a good 40+ years away and until then we likely don't need a 3rd one.

I see two major problems with the airport idea:
1. You won't get cheaper tickets except for a few outlier/direct flights.
2. It's likely to lose most bids VS Halifax/Moncton for distribution/commerce/logistical center deals.
Conclusion: if you're not getting cheaper tickets or barely boosting commerce, what's the point?

Eventually all three NB cities will have large airports as their populations increase, it's just going to take longer than anyone wants. Tax dollars are better spent elsewhere. If SJ ever got that pipeline that would be a significant boost, and if the conservatives(Federal) get in power next who knows? That's likely SJ's golden ticket to economic prosperity.
As I said before, things are cyclical. It’s very unlikely Moncton has a FUA of over 550,000 by 2050, which is basically 25 years away. For Moncton to have a FUA that would basically equal the current metro population of Saskatoon and Regina combined in only 25 years is some truly fantastical levels of wishful thinking. Basically I think you’re dreaming, but it’s at least a positive dream. In the off case that your dreams do actually come true, it would mean that the NB economy and population as a whole would have grown dramatically in the next 25 years and the combined metro populations of Saint John and Fredericton would very well be over 650,000 under such a scenario. Fingers crossed such a future is what we are looking towards in 25 years… but again, it’s highly improbable current migration rates keep pace to produce these magical numbers you’ve dreamed up. 25 years of unprecedented levels of migration and economy growth is nice on paper, but hard to achieve in reality. Not impossible, but still highly improbable.

YQM has larger passenger numbers than YSJ and YFC combined at the moment, because both YSJ and YFC are smaller scale airports with less ability to compete with YQM, not because Moncton has a population more likely to purchase airline flights or something like that. So, using the current airport numbers as the basis to measure the validity of a Fredericton-Saint John airport in the future is just an inherently flawed assumption based on numbers that don’t tell a fully accurate story. The combined SJ and Fredericton FUA is currently around 300,000 people, and their combined demographics will very likely continue to be ahead of Moncton’s by 2050 based on any sort of safe assumption. Saint John has firmly been established as the main Port for the province of NB (and one of the largest in Canada), as well as the industrial centre of the province, while Fredericton remains the capital, so yes, the Maritimes could definitely use a third major airport to facilitate the growth and development of the second largest combined population area in the maritimes.

It seems no matter what the topic, you find a way to bolster the size and importance of the Moncton region and find a way to minimize and detract from the size and importance of Saint John and Fredericton regions. Perhaps take off your Moncton hat for a moment, put on a New Brunswick hat instead, and try to think a little less biased about the subject at hand.

A properly planned combined airport designed to serve Fredericton, Saint John and the rest of Southern New Brunswick would have the ability to directly compete with with YQM both in terms of routes and prices, that’s just simply how economies of scale work. It would be positive for Fredericton and Saint John and positive for Moncton and New Brunswick as a whole, and far preferable to the current situation where NB only has one major airport in YQM.

A future where Moncton’s functional urban area is larger than that of Saint John and Fredericton’s combined functional urban areas in just 25 years is far from desirable and preferable for New Brunswick… and just not at all realistic, imo. It’s possible, but it wouldn’t be a very positive future just 25 on from now. Thus, the need for government to step in and come up with ways to to spur on economic growth and development in the Fredericton and Saint John regions.

Macro economic stability is the primary goal of any good government, and stabilizing the growth and demographic trajectory of the province by investing in large scale projects for Saint John and Fredericton, such as a combined airport, become more economically necessary and justifiable. Win-win situations are both possible and desirable. Saint John and Fredericton’s combined metro populations being eclipsed by Metro Moncton or Moncton’s FUA by 2050 is far from a win-win for the province. Devising a strategy to keep Moncton growth high and help the Fredericton and Saint John regions increase their growth rates would be a win-win and far preferable for the province as a whole. Hoping and wishing for a new pipeline project to be Saint John’s golden ticket for growth and prosperity is the opposite of good economic and demographic stewardship, imo. There’s far more realistic, and sustainable long term economic projects that the government of NB can pursue than in the foreseeable future than a pipeline that will ultimately rely upon placating and negotiating with Quebec to ever get approved. We’ll just have to wait and see what the future beholds, and until then, keep on advocating for smart economic investments and projects for our perspective cities and regions. The Saint John and Fredericton regions could certainly use more tireless advocates for their regions such as yourself and Moncton Rad.

Here’s hoping for a more sustainable and prosperous economic and demographic future for all three of of NB’s main cities.
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  #1506  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2024, 1:25 AM
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You keep referring to a "combined Saint John/Fredericton FUA". There is no such thing. They are two separate FUAs, and are likely to remain so for the foreseeable future. The two cities may be only 75 minutes apart, but are separated by 100 km of wilderness, and the occasional small village. The critical mass of commuting and economic interplay does not exist and will not exist for a long time.

Moncton is larger than SJ and Freddy, and, the difference is accelerating. I do not foresee this changing. I do not believe the rosy population projections of MonctonGoldenTri, but, continuing to use the FUA as the marker of a metropolitan area, I could see Moncton at 400,000 by 2050 (as long as immigration numbers remain high).

Quote:
A future where Moncton’s functional urban area is larger than that of Saint John and Fredericton’s combined functional urban areas in just 25 years is far from desirable and preferable for New Brunswick… and just not at all realistic, imo. It’s possible, but it wouldn’t be a very positive future just 25 on from now. Thus, the need for government to step in and come up with ways to to spur on economic growth and development in the Fredericton and Saint John regions.
You appear to be frightened by the prospect of Moncton being the primate city in New Brunswick. We promise to be benign overlords.

Seriously though, if your solution to this is to thwart Moncton's growth by selectively stimulating the economies of SJ and Freddy, then I consider this a dangerous form of social and economic engineering. Best to let the markets sort things out on their own.

People in the past (especially Saint Johners) have loudly complained that NB has been screwed compared to NS because we do not have a primate city. They blame this on the creation of Fredericton and the loss of the provincial capital and provincial university. This is historically true, but is not the only reason why SJ has fallen behind. Saint John apparently only believes in the concept of a primate city for the province if that city happens to be Saint John. The idea of another city assuming that mantle apparently frightens the dickens out of them.
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  #1507  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2024, 1:50 AM
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It wouldn't surprise me to start seeing some decent sized projects in Truro in the next decade, especially if Cape Breton continues to grow.

At what population does Truro become a logistical center, similar to Moncton?
50,000-60,000 was roughly Moncton's population when rumblings of making Moncton the Maritime hub aka the Maritimes logistical city.

It will happen as some point as Moncton-Halifax continues their explosive growth.
Decent sized project are happening in Truro.

Truro is like Moncton. In fact, it's nickname is "the Hub of Nova Scotia." It is the most important growth centre in the province after Halifax (probably more important than CBRM if you removed Dave Dingwall and CBU from the equation).

The next community most likely to become a CMA in the Maritimes after Charlottetown id probably Truro. CBRM is hamstrung by it's widely distributed population base, and it will be a struggle for them to ever get a POPCTR of 50,000).

I think Truro is just a little too far way, and a little too economically disconnected and self sufficient to ever get absorbed into the Halifax CMA. Truro however could become an independent CMA sometime in the latter half of this century.
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  #1508  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2024, 2:20 AM
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You keep referring to a "combined Saint John/Fredericton FUA". There is no such thing. They are two separate FUAs, and are likely to remain so for the foreseeable future. The two cities may be only 75 minutes apart, but are separated by 100 km of wilderness, and the occasional small village. The critical mass of commuting and economic interplay does not exist and will not exist for a long time.

Moncton is larger than SJ and Freddy, and, the difference is accelerating. I do not foresee this changing. I do not believe the rosy population projections of MonctonGoldenTri, but, continuing to use the FUA as the marker of a metropolitan area, I could see Moncton at 400,000 by 2050 (as long as immigration numbers remain high).



You appear to be frightened by the prospect of Moncton being the primate city in New Brunswick. We promise to be benign overlords.

Seriously though, if your solution to this is to thwart Moncton's growth by selectively stimulating the economies of SJ and Freddy, then I consider this a dangerous form of social and economic engineering. Best to let the markets sort things out on their own.

People in the past (especially Saint Johners) have loudly complained that NB has been screwed compared to NS because we do not have a primate city. They blame this on the creation of Fredericton and the loss of the provincial capital and provincial university. This is historically true, but is not the only reason why SJ has fallen behind. Saint John apparently only believes in the concept of a primate city for the province if that city happens to be Saint John. The idea of another city assuming that mantle apparently frightens the dickens out of them.

Did I say a single that about thwarting Moncton’s growth? Not once… I said win wins are possible and preferable.

Dangerous form of social engineering? Yeeeesh, lmao. I’m talking about building an airport, which you’re trying to spin off as some sort of nefarious plot

You’re the one who said FUA’s are similar to CSA’s in America. Saint John and Fredericton would be considered part of the same CSA in the USA. With an aerotropolis located midway between SJ and Fredericton, both cities suburban growth trajectories would be growing towards each other, which could very well make them a single FUA one day.

MonctonGoldenTri seems to be scared of a combined Fredericton-Saint John airport displacing YQM more than anything. Personally, I think it would be be a positive development for all three cities, as two airports that actually compete against each other are good for everyone.


Again, to suggest building airports, or building bridges to the Kingston peninsula to spur on suburban development north of Saint John is some form of socialist economic and social engineering is just completely hyperbolic and inaccurate. It would be good long term economic and demographic management, for a region that market forces have resulted in a disproportionately eastward trajectory. There’s nothing dangerous or nefarious about investing in infrastructure to make the urban sprawl and economic development of the region more concentric and sustainable.

You two just always want to make it about Moncton somehow. Investing in a combined Fredericton-Saint John airport and improving transportation infrastructure between the two cities including bridge on and off the Kingston peninsula have absolutely nothing to do with” thwarting” economic and demographic growth in Moncton. It’s about investing in infrastructure to make set up both Saint John and Fredericton for more sustainable growth models into the future. If you consider that dangerous, I’m scared to think what you consider the safe option. We don’t live in a world of pure free markets, and I think you’re clever enough to realize that.

It’s possible for all three regions to thrive, but Saint John and and Fredericton may need more investments made to achieve this goal, without taking away from Moncton’s growth. Dealing with regional disparities have long been a function of both the Canadian federal government, and New Brunswick provincial government. Regional amalgamation and tax reform by themselves would go a long way to creating a more sustainable economic and demographic future for Saint John. Investing in a shared airport and improving transportation infrastructure between SJ and Fredericton is just good economic management. I don’t see the need for all this spin.
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  #1509  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2024, 9:37 AM
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I don't think we do a particularly good job of predicting the future. I seem to recall widespread predictions from the 1970's that forecast Saint John's population to be 200K by the year 2000.

Growth trends have always ebbed and flowed over time. Who knows what regional, national or international forces or events might act to accelerate, sustain or curb current trends.

Let's not forget that Shelburne NS was once larger than Montreal or Halifax and immediately following confederation in the 1871 census Saint John was the 5th largest city in Canada, just a few hundred people behind Halifax

Will Moncton continue to grow in leaps and bounds for the next 5-10-15 years? Very likely. After that? Who knows.
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  #1510  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2024, 11:33 AM
MonctonGoldenTri MonctonGoldenTri is offline
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I don't think we do a particularly good job of predicting the future. I seem to recall widespread predictions from the 1970's that forecast Saint John's population to be 200K by the year 2000.

Growth trends have always ebbed and flowed over time. Who knows what regional, national or international forces or events might act to accelerate, sustain or curb current trends.

Let's not forget that Shelburne NS was once larger than Montreal or Halifax and immediately following confederation in the 1871 census Saint John was the 5th largest city in Canada, just a few hundred people behind Halifax

Will Moncton continue to grow in leaps and bounds for the next 5-10-15 years? Very likely. After that? Who knows.
You do realize that Moncton has sustained a net positive growth for well over 30 years right. In fact most CMA's tend to grow, what Saint John experienced is an outlier. Moncton's CMA surpassed SJ's 20 years ago (2004) and all we ever hear from SJ's are scoffs, eye rolls, lame joke or some story clinging on to the past.

Has anyone ever sat down and asked themselves what is/was Moncton's catalyst for growth? I'll give you a hint, it isn't the city itself, nor its history. It isn't about the Airport either, sure the Bilingualism helps but that's not it. I've mentioned it several times times already only to be scoff''d at from envisionSaintjohn.

This catalyst has helped big corporations save millions every year, the answer is purely logisitical and not very difficult to understand. There's a very specific reason why Moncton is capable of punching way above its weight and competes against an FUA twice its size(Halifax) for these types of corporations.
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  #1511  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2024, 11:47 AM
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In short - location, location, location....................

Saint John has the port, and, Irving heavy industry

Fredericton has the government, the university and the military.

Moncton has transportation, distribution, central location and bilingualism

These factors define each city, and, provide a stable base for each city to grow and prosper. This is not going to change. Cities should play to their strengths. All three cities are destined to prosper.

I just tend to believe that the underpinnings of Moncton's economy will create greater growth than in SJ or Freddy. Momentum is also important, and, right now, Moncton has that in spades.

Could this change? Sure!!! Maybe small modular reactors will be destined to be the energy saviours of the world in which case SJ will make out like a bandit. This would be fantastic for the entire provonce. We just don't know what the world will be like in 20 years time.
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  #1512  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2024, 12:29 PM
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I agree, all 3 of NB's main cities have a lot of growth potential, and each has solid foundations that are quite different from the others, which is part of the reason why all three are doing so well.

My own views on the future for them:

* Moncton is the current poster child. With foundations based on Tourism and Logistics and it's bilingualism foundation and central location, it will continue to do well going forward.
* Saint John is our Industrial heart. It's had some hard times and still has some growing pains to sort out, but it's a solid port that is expanding, and has great connections to the US and the rest of Canada. It may not become a huge port, but it's got a solid cargo hub future, along with its industrial base. I could see it having some booms going forward, maybe not enough to beat Moncton but still keep it solidly in second.
* Fredericton's a stable city built on a tripod of Government, Military and Education. The thing is, neither Government nor Military will really lead it to a big "boom" in growth, but instead it has a more steady growth that will probably keep it firmly in 3rd, but nipping at SJ's heels.

Education is Freddy's wildcard. While that can bring in a lot of growth (See CBRM and KWC), if we want to sustain that growth we need to nurture it. IMO, Freddy needs to do more to keep those students local. Set up some incubator industrial park areas and programs where graduates can turn their ideas into businesses. We already have a solid Tech industrial base in the city, we need to make sure that keeps growing. (I'm a Waterloo grad from the 2000's, and one thing that impressed me from attending there was how much graduate-fueled industry was in the region. RIM was the big guy, but there were lots of other startups and smaller tech companies that were all spun out from the University. Maybe I don't spend enough time near UNB/STU, but I don't get that feel here in Freddy)
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  #1513  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2024, 12:29 PM
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Envision, I think your point about amalgamation in Saint John is a valid one. With my post I was responding to thoughts about Moncton, where I believe a forced amalgamation would be a loss to the area. Saint John could be considered more like Detroit, I would think, where a forced amalgamation would likely serve to benefit the entire urban area. I could support an amalgamation in Saint John for the very reasons you mention and my post should have been more specific.
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  #1514  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2024, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post


In short - location, location, location....................

Saint John has the port, and, Irving heavy industry

Fredericton has the government, the university and the military.

Moncton has transportation, distribution, central location and bilingualism

These factors define each city, and, provide a stable base for each city to grow and prosper. This is not going to change. Cities should play to their strengths. All three cities are destined to prosper.

I just tend to believe that the underpinnings of Moncton's economy will create greater growth than in SJ or Freddy. Momentum is also important, and, right now, Moncton has that in spades.

Could this change? Sure!!! Maybe small modular reactors will be destined to be the energy saviours of the world in which case SJ will make out like a bandit. This would be fantastic for the entire provonce. We just don't know what the world will be like in 20 years time.
That was the point I was attempting to make. Moncton is certainly on a roll that looks likely to continue for awhile. What will be happening in 2040 or 2050? who knows.
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  #1515  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2024, 1:06 PM
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As I said before, things are cyclical. It’s very unlikely Moncton has a FUA of over 550,000 by 2050, which is basically 25 years away. For Moncton to have a FUA that would basically equal the current metro population of Saskatoon and Regina combined in only 25 years is some truly fantastical levels of wishful thinking. Basically I think you’re dreaming, but it’s at least a positive dream. In the off case that your dreams do actually come true, it would mean that the NB economy and population as a whole would have grown dramatically in the next 25 years and the combined metro populations of Saint John and Fredericton would very well be over 650,000 under such a scenario. Fingers crossed such a future is what we are looking towards in 25 years… but again, it’s highly improbable current migration rates keep pace to produce these magical numbers you’ve dreamed up. 25 years of unprecedented levels of migration and economy growth is nice on paper, but hard to achieve in reality. Not impossible, but still highly improbable.

YQM has larger passenger numbers than YSJ and YFC combined at the moment, because both YSJ and YFC are smaller scale airports with less ability to compete with YQM, not because Moncton has a population more likely to purchase airline flights or something like that. So, using the current airport numbers as the basis to measure the validity of a Fredericton-Saint John airport in the future is just an inherently flawed assumption based on numbers that don’t tell a fully accurate story. The combined SJ and Fredericton FUA is currently around 300,000 people, and their combined demographics will very likely continue to be ahead of Moncton’s by 2050 based on any sort of safe assumption. Saint John has firmly been established as the main Port for the province of NB (and one of the largest in Canada), as well as the industrial centre of the province,

Strictly industrial for specific sectors yes, distribution/logistic absolutely not. Please explain me why Moncton/Dieppe's industrial parks are significantly outpacing Saint John's/Fredericton's? You do realize that Moncton's is pushing industrial/distribution growth on a level similar to Halifax right? Why is Saint john never considered/included when major distributors is looking to open distribution channels in the maritimes? Again you seem to be living in the past and not the current reality or the last 30 years.


while Fredericton remains the capital, so yes, the Maritimes could definitely use a third major airport to facilitate the growth and development of the second largest combined population area in the maritimes.


It isn't, you seem to ignore/deflect the fact that the Moncton Airport services more than it's FUA, the majority of Northern NB, some parts of PEI and NS, the Moncton Airport is most likely servicing 300,000+ today. Saint John is cornered and barely gains anything beyond its FUA and the same applies to Fredericton beyond Oromocto. The stats don't agree with your analysis, you can deny the statistics and factual evidence all you want but it won't help your argument.


It seems no matter what the topic, you find a way to bolster the size and importance of the Moncton region and find a way to minimize and detract from the size and importance of Saint John and Fredericton regions. Perhaps take off your Moncton hat for a moment, put on a New Brunswick hat instead, and try to think a little less biased about the subject at hand.

I haven't, I plotted a linear projection for Moncton's CMA + Shediac (Beaubasin) growth, in fact I undersold the numbers since in didn't factor Moncton's entire FUA. You're are literally doing what you're accusing me of, instead of actually looking at the raw data you've pumped Freddy/SJ FUA numbers by an additional 120,000 based on a hypothetical/fantasy that doesn't even exist. It's ok to dislike the stats/data, you're certainly allowed to be unhappy about it but the stats disagree with you.


A properly planned combined airport designed to serve Fredericton, Saint John and the rest of Southern New Brunswick would have the ability to directly compete with with YQM both in terms of routes and prices, that’s just simply how economies of scale work. It would be positive for Fredericton and Saint John and positive for Moncton and New Brunswick as a whole, and far preferable to the current situation where NB only has one major airport in YQM.

A future where Moncton’s functional urban area is larger than that of Saint John and Fredericton’s combined functional urban areas in just 25 years is far from desirable and preferable for New Brunswick… and just not at all realistic, imo. It’s possible, but it wouldn’t be a very positive future just 25 on from now. Thus, the need for government to step in and come up with ways to to spur on economic growth and development in the Fredericton and Saint John regions.

Macro economic stability is the primary goal of any good government, and stabilizing the growth and demographic trajectory of the province by investing in large scale projects for Saint John and Fredericton, such as a combined airport, become more economically necessary and justifiable. Win-win situations are both possible and desirable. Saint John and Fredericton’s combined metro populations being eclipsed by Metro Moncton or Moncton’s FUA by 2050 is far from a win-win for the province. Devising a strategy to keep Moncton growth high and help the Fredericton and Saint John regions increase their growth rates would be a win-win and far preferable for the province as a whole. Hoping and wishing for a new pipeline project to be Saint John’s golden ticket for growth and prosperity is the opposite of good economic and demographic stewardship, imo. There’s far more realistic, and sustainable long term economic projects that the government of NB can pursue than in the foreseeable future than a pipeline that will ultimately rely upon placating and negotiating with Quebec to ever get approved. We’ll just have to wait and see what the future beholds, and until then, keep on advocating for smart economic investments and projects for our perspective cities and regions. The Saint John and Fredericton regions could certainly use more tireless advocates for their regions such as yourself and Moncton Rad.

Here’s hoping for a more sustainable and prosperous economic and demographic future for all three of of NB’s main cities.

[B]The more I analyze this Joint airport location the less sense it makes from a purely logistics point of view. If this airports goal was to create a distribution/logistics center then the vision has to be to serve the Maritimes as a whole. This Airport would literally be adding 1HR (30 minutes each way) transportation mileage/fuel/cost each way compared to simply boosting Fredericton's or Saint Johns current industrial/distribution presence. It makes even worse when you compare it to Moncton(see below). Why would a corporation willingly increase their cost? Losing millions every year?

Within a 2.5Hr drive Moncton serves over 2M Maritimer's while this Joint airport would serve less than 1M using the same 2.5HR transportation range. To Compete with Moncton this airport you need to stretch it's transportation range to 4.5HR, this would add significant cost to any corporations in the hundreds of millions over it's lifetime. The last time I checked corporations are in business to make money, not add 100's of millions in cost. More importantly corporations don't care who's the biggest/smallest city, they want to drive higher profits/efficiency to please shareholders. This airport would likely be a catastrophic failure if it's objective is to boost distribution/logistics since they would likely fail to attract major corporations.
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  #1516  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2024, 1:15 PM
MonctonGoldenTri MonctonGoldenTri is offline
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That was the point I was attempting to make. Moncton is certainly on a roll that looks likely to continue for awhile. What will be happening in 2040 or 2050? who knows.
The exact same can be said about SJ, when the green energy tipping point is triggered in the next 30-40 years what happens to SJ's refinery? Of course we'll always need oil refinery's but not at the same level as today, Could we potentially another population decline in SJ?
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  #1517  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2024, 1:40 PM
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I love Moncton getting ahead, but frankly, a friendly rivalry is much more interesting and healthier. It's no fun when the others aren't developing and growing, too.
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  #1518  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2024, 1:50 PM
MonctonGoldenTri MonctonGoldenTri is offline
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I love Moncton getting ahead, but frankly, a friendly rivalry is much more interesting and healthier. It's no fun when the others aren't developing and growing, too.
I agree

When I make projection using real data/stats it seems to rub some individuals the wrong way. All the projections show the three cities grow but it's not my fault the numbers project Moncton growing at a significantly higher rate. Some individuals can't seem to accept it. If I was using fake/fantasy numbers I would fully expect someone to call me out, but that isn't what happening here.
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  #1519  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2024, 4:23 PM
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MonctonGoldenTri…

First off: whether or not SJ and Fredericton combined would be considered a single FUA is besides the point. (In the USA they’d be considered one CSA, btw). What matters is that the they are only an out away from each other, which makes sense for them to share an airport midway between the cities. The resultant aerotropolis would almost certainly result in the two cities being considered part of the same FUA one day, especially if Saint John’s suburbs starting growing northward towards the airport and Fredericton’s start growing south towards the airport. The concept of a shared airport for the two cities is not hard to understand.

The combined population of Saint John and Fredericton’s CMAs is larger than Moncton CMA. The catchment area for the Moncton airport may be quite a bit larger than the Moncton CMA, but the catchment area for a shared SJ Fredericton airport would also be larger than their combined CMA. No matter how you look at it, we’re a province growing towards 1 million people and beyond, having two large airports to service the three largest cities is better than having 1 large airport and 2 small airports serving other three largest cities. Moncton would benefit from a combined Fredericton-Saint John airport too , because it will create a more competitive environment. The airport could also be strictly passenger focussed, freeing up YFC and YSJ to take on larger cargo capacities than they currently service.



… as for this piece, and I quote, “Strictly industrial for specific sectors yes, distribution/logistic absolutely not. Please explain me why Moncton/Dieppe's industrial parks are significantly outpacing Saint John's/Fredericton's? You do realize that Moncton's is pushing industrial/distribution growth on a level similar to Halifax right? Why is Saint john never considered/included when major distributors is looking to open distribution channels in the maritimes? Again you seem to be living in the past and not the current reality or the last 30 years.”

What in God’s green earth do you classify one of Canada’s busiest ports as, and by far the largest port in the province as, other than to do with logistics? What is the intermodal logistics centre in West Saint John currently being built classified as? It all has to do with logistics, so I’m not really understanding what you’re getting at here. I didn’t once say Saint John was competing with Moncton as a distribution hub, or use the word distribution once


You just find a way to turn everything into a measuring contest between Moncton and Saint John and take every chance you can to point out areas Moncton is ahead of SJ in… I get it that your psyched on your city and regions growth, but it’s not binary… Moncton growing doesn’t mean SJ must stagnant, and same with the converse.

The airport idea is a good one, and would really help Saint John correct decades of eastward suburban sprawl.

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Originally Posted by MonctonGoldenTri View Post
I agree

When I make projection using real data/stats it seems to rub some individuals the wrong way. All the projections show the three cities grow but it's not my fault the numbers project Moncton growing at a significantly higher rate. Some individuals can't seem to accept it. If I was using fake/fantasy numbers I would fully expect someone to call me out, but that isn't what happening here.
You literally said Moncton could reach a FUA of 550,000+ 25 years from now. Think about it for a second. Saskatoon and Regina are both larger CMA’s than Moncton right now, and in a province with a much stronger economy, but your prediction has Moncton reaching a Functional Urban Area with a population basically equal to the current combined populations Regina and Saskatoon Metro Areas in just 25 more years. As I said before, that’s some magical, fantastical thinking you have there. Those are dream numbers, which would be great if they happened, but again, highly improbable.
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  #1520  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2024, 4:26 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonGoldenTri View Post
The exact same can be said about SJ, when the green energy tipping point is triggered in the next 30-40 years what happens to SJ's refinery? Of course we'll always need oil refinery's but not at the same level as today, Could we potentially another population decline in SJ?
You literally said that a new pipeline could be Saint John’s golden ticket for prosperity just a few posts up. This is like a comical level of contradicting yourself
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