Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 5

[Nebula3lem123]

^the size of the metro area, if slc annexed millcreek, ssl, wvc, and nsl, we'd be hitting 3, 400k handily

[locolife]

Originally Posted by Paniolo Man

It's the lack of information that is upsetting to me. We're committing a billion tax dollars to a billionaire with a vague idealistic plan and no obligation to deliver.

Everything else in this state has to at least go through the illusion of being studied before money is allocated. Here we are arguing about what could or couldn't happen, one way or another, Smith is getting that cash.

I'm sure he'll get the cash and I'm sure he'll become a lot richer as a result. That's how these things usually go.

[el conquistador]

Good stuff, Delts, but I would be curious what metrics Macrotrends and UN are using, because they are lowballing quite a bit based on US Census Bureau numbers:

• Boise City, ID Metro Area 764,714 (2020) 824,657 (2023 Est.)
• Ogden, UT Metro Area 637,207 658,133
• Provo-Orem-Lehi, UT Metro Area 671,172 732,197
• Salt Lake City-Murray, UT Metro Area 1,257,939 1,267,864

Ada county (Boise, Meridian, Kuna, Eagle, Star, all well within the immediate MSA) alone is ~525,000

If you stretch out to the CSA, which does include Malheur County in Oregon and Mtn. Home, the number is ~915,000

With that said, Boise's skyline is kind of lacking IMO, but catching up with current and future projects. The planners just need to not be scared of some height.

I would like to see more density coming from the MSA areas like Meridian and Nampa, but that is a ways off in reality.

I take an interest in SLC, been going there a lot since I was a little kid and have a bunch of college friends, family, and a kid there who is a Marching Ute! I spend a lot of time there, going to be down for a bunch of games this fall since he is a senior, glad to see the Holy War is back to being a conference game. Watching SLC's urban transformation has been fun. I would KILL for any kind of rail system in the Boise area, but our legislature is the dumbest in the nation, so any talk of funding gets killed.

According to the latest United Nations 2024 and or Macrotrends population estimates:
- Salt Lake City's immediate MSA is now reaching 1,214,000
- Provo/Orem's immediate MSA is now reaching 859,000
- Ogden/Layton's immediate MSA is now reaching 761,000

- Boise's immediate MSA is now reaching 476,000

BTW, that skyline shot is pretty amazing!

[airhero]

Originally Posted by Comrade

Just look what's incorporated in the land size of the city, though:

Salt Lake City

Boise

As you can see, a good chunk of Salt Lake's land is either mountain or uninhabitable industrial (the area out by the airport + south of the Great Salt Lake).

Here's a better comparison:

Salt Lake County is 807 sq mi and has a population of 1,185,238.

Ada County is 1,060 sq mi and has a population of 494,967.

Yeah if you draw a shape around the inhabited area of Salt Lake City, including all uninhabited areas within or between neighborhoods (parks, commercial/industrial corridors), and excluding outlying areas that will never be inhabited, it's only about 30 sq mi. That translates to about 7,000 people/sq mi (much higher than the official less than 2,000). Denser than the average suburb, but still not super dense. Boston is ~14,000 and SF ~19,000 with both being 45-50 sq mi in land area.

[Comrade]

Renovating Abravanel Hall could cost more than $200 million:

https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics...=snd-autopilot

It would likely be cheaper to build a new hall (Eccles in 2024 dollars was built for about $160 million).

Worth the extra price to keep it? That's a good debate I think.

[mattreedah]

Originally Posted by Comrade

Renovating Abravanel Hall could cost more than $200 million:

https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics...=snd-autopilot

It would likely be cheaper to build a new hall (Eccles in 2024 dollars was built for about $160 million).

Worth the extra price to keep it? That's a good debate I think.

The Abravanel Hall truthers have zero plan that I’m aware of to fix these issues, unless putting your head in the sand and pretending it’s fine is a plan.

[Rileybo]

The acoustics inside Abravanel are very unique and couldn’t be replicated exactly, besides the history, that would be the biggest loss, I believe. By and large, SLC is not a destination city.. but for full orchestra performers, it certainly is.

[rockies]

Originally Posted by mattreedah

The Abravanel Hall truthers have zero plan that I’m aware of to fix these issues, unless putting your head in the sand and pretending it’s fine is a plan.

Hahahaha I have seen some really funny takes on the sub especially. I get people being attached the acoustics and maybe it should stay for that reason, but they also say any objective statement about abravanels operational issues are agenda-driven in support of the entertainment district. It is not as if it will be able to continue functionally without these upgrades at some point - will it not be far more expensive in 5-10 years bc of both inflation and further deterioration?

I am not in overwhelming support of demolishing it but the symphony itself did not even seem that concerned so it all seems a bit pretentious to me given there is no actual plan or anything. I kinda like the idea of preserving it for the sake of having an old building one day too though so idk I won't be mad if its renovated. In that case, I hope they included the facade in that estimate because I think it is really ugly from the outside. It and the museum have always felt like such an awkward spot downtown because of their placements/orientations imo.

[Blah_Amazing]

Two of the properties that would be needed to make something similar to my Japantown proposal are currently for sale.

Personally, I think these two properties are critical in order to come close to creating a real Japantown in Salt Lake.

My plan for Japantown and Entertainment District:

276 W 100 S
https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/276-...y-UT/30475470/
asking $9,800,000
0.27 acres

My proposal called for this building to be leveled and replaced with a Japanese American Memorial Plaza honoring the history of Salt Lake's Japanese community as well as the history of Japanese American internments at places like Topaz here in Utah. I could also see it becoming the site of shops, a restaurant, or mixed-use building instead.





126 S 200 W
https://www.crexi.com/properties/234...ah-126-s-200-w
asking $2,700,000.
0.28 acres

My proposal called for this house to be replaced with a new Multi-Ethnic Senior Highrise in order to replace the old and really ugly structure behind it. That way, the site of the existing senior housing building could become the real heart of Japantown.



This property, located next door to the Buddhist Temple, is essential for Japantown's future.

[meman]

On a somewhat unrelated note, I just returned from a trip to San Diego where I extensively toured the downtown area.

It has a great number of beautiful highrise residential towers downtown which I took numerous pictures of with my phone, but unfortunately most of them did not come out.

It is my understanding that a task force is being sent to San Diego from salt lake to view all these high rise towers in hopes that something similar can be built in downtown salt lake

[wrendog]

Originally Posted by Enemy4thePeople

<vulgar post deleted>

It's sure obvious what side your in. Well done with your hyperbole and incorrect assumptions about the other side. Lol.

[dakben]

As a symphony goer, I'm all in favor of a rebuild. The acoustics are good, sure, but it's so uncomfortable to be there that it's not worth it. And all of about 4 rows have good views. There is more than acoustics to be considered in a good symphony hall. Look at Walt Disney Concert Hall in Los Angeles (exterior aside--that can be divisive, but I love it). Fantastic sightlines, phenomenal acoustics, and comfortable seating. What a concept.

[TheWireRedux]

FWIW, if you took the cost of Disney Concert Hall without the $110M parking garage attached to the project, it was a $130M for the hall itself. Adjusting that for inflation, that would come to $221.5M today, roughly equivalent the larger renovation plan ($216.4M). There are so many reasons to keep beautiful landmarks in a city that span generations, but I can definitely see both sides of the debate on this one. Especially if we could bring in a world-class architect in on the project knowing it could be an iconic centerpiece of the 2034 Olympics, it might be an opportunity that we rarely get for a signature structure for the city. Anything short of that, however, makes me feel we need to keep Abravanel Hall as is given the arguments everyone has made.

[Nebula3lem123]

Personally, I think a renovation will be worth it. In it's current state, I can see the problems, but I feel that the history of the building and the person it's named after are very important and it would be a shame to lose it. If building a new concert hall nearby is deemed necessary, I will be sad, but I can understand why. I do think that any concert hall, new or renovated, should keep the Abravanel name, because he was so important to both the current hall and the symphony that performs within its walls.

[s.p.hansen]

The Abravanel Hall thing cracks me up. It’s so far on the fringe of that area. It’s not even on the list of top ten things around the Delta Center that would get sucked into a redevelopment black hole. The drama around it feels so astroturfed like it’s either a way for city leaders to look like they’re doing something to look relevant (by saying this building will be protected) or it’s from the Abravanel stakeholders themselves trying to wedge themselves into this debate to grift money off of all this investment for a retrofit. Honestly, just the usual theatrics we’ve come to expect from the glorified HOA that is the Salt Lake City Council.

[s.p.hansen]

To a point mentioned here earlier, and a perennial subject of this board, cities all over go through trends. There was a Post War trend of suburbs connecting small towns together and being annexed into the old downtown cores of their metros (e.g. Denver, Los Angeles, Toronto). This was a power move in the past. I don’t think that model matters as much now as it did even as recently as the 90’s. It’s kind of like how it felt inevitable that Lagoon was going to be a Six Flags one day because that was just a thing that happened in so many places, and then that model sort of just fell apart. Whenever someone says Utah would get more growth if we embraced the County as the City model, just remember that we have a literal housing crisis and too many people wanting to move here and stay here. We are developing a class of people here so rich they can afford to do things that Larry Miller couldn’t. I see no evidence of lost opportunities in the 2020’s because we opted out of the mega annexation model.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by s.p.hansen

The Abravanel Hall thing cracks me up. It’s so far on the fringe of that area. It’s not even on the list of top ten things around the Delta Center that would get sucked into a redevelopment black hole. The drama around it feels so astroturfed like it’s either a way for city leaders to look like they’re doing something to look relevant (by saying this building will be protected) or it’s from the Abravanel stakeholders themselves trying to wedge themselves into this debate to grift money off of all this investment for a retrofit. Honestly, just the usual theatrics we’ve come to expect from the glorified HOA that is the Salt Lake City Council.

I think it's come up solely due to how it engaged with that block. The initial plans call for opening up a pedestrian area in the middle of what is now the Salt Palace. I guess doing so will also force some level of renovations because Abravanel I guess uses the same HVAC system as the Salt Palace?

[i-215]

Isn't the bulk of the problem more the lobby versus the hall itself?



I mean, when we look at the reclaimable space (red), the hall itself (green, right) really takes up so little of it. Heck, even the Radisson (green, left) could stay in place (imo) as its footprint is pretty small.

Are the plans including screwing around with the two blocks to the south as well (beyond rebuilding convention space)? Or is it still to early to know?

[Nebula3lem123]

Originally Posted by Comrade

I think it's come up solely due to how it engaged with that block. The initial plans call for opening up a pedestrian area in the middle of what is now the Salt Palace. I guess doing so will also force some level of renovations because Abravanel I guess uses the same HVAC system as the Salt Palace?

I'm not sure they do, maybe but Abravanel has been around much longer than the current convention center so I would assume they would have separate HVAC systems. I think a lot of people just assume that Abravanel IS the Salt Palace, like they're the same building, so they assume that doing anything to the Salt Palace would involve/require major renovations to Abravanel and/or complete demolition, leading to some hysteria (I am guilty of this to be fair).

[Nebula3lem123]

Originally Posted by i-215

Are the plans including screwing around with the two blocks to the south as well (beyond rebuilding convention space)? Or is it still to early to know?

Seems too early to know right now, there aren't any publicly available plans right now AFIAK.