Portland Streetcar News

[maccoinnich]

From the October BPS newsletter, it looks like we should be hearing something soon.

Montgomery Park to Hollywood Transit and Land Use Development Strategy (MP2H)

What: Exploring options for a successful land use and transit system, including potential streetcar linking Montgomery Park in Northwest Portland to the Hollywood Town Center in Northeast Portland. The project is a joint effort between BPS and PBOT. The project will assess land use and transportation issues and options, including affordable housing, economic development and business stabilization opportunities associated with potential transit investments, including possible extension of the Portland Streetcar.

Status: The project team is developing a Discussion Draft proposal for the Northwest study area for public review. The draft is expected to be released in November.

Next opportunity to engage: The public will be invited to review and comment on the Discussion Draft proposal for the Northwest study area after it is released. Those interested can always sign up for email updates.

[CorbinWarrick]

Interesting. I’m assuming the route is up Sandy Blvd?

[bvpcvm]

That's one of the possibilities; another is out along Broadway. IIRC for Sandy, trains would follow the existing route south from the convention center to either Sandy > Hollywood or Burnside > Sandy > Hollywood. Broadway makes far more sense to me.

[PacificStates]

Originally Posted by CorbinWarrick

Interesting. I’m assuming the route is up Sandy Blvd?

Hopefully. There are three potential routes they're looking at. One uses Broadway to travel through Lloyd until it reaches Sandy in Hollywood.

The one I think is the clear winning choice is E Burnside to Sandy, then up Sandy to Hollywood. There's a lot of development going up along that route. Meanwhile developers have seemingly given up on Lloyd.

https://star-news.info/2020/08/06/city-p...o-bring-portland-streetcar-to-hollywood/

https://portlandstreetcar.org/news/2020/...l-streetcar-extension-to-montgomery-park

[PacificStates]

Originally Posted by bvpcvm

That's one of the possibilities; another is out along Broadway. IIRC for Sandy, trains would follow the existing route south from the convention center to either Sandy > Hollywood or Burnside > Sandy > Hollywood. Broadway makes far more sense to me.

Ha! You beat me to it, but it looks like we have different preferred routes.

[MarkDaMan]

https://portlandstreetcar.org/news/2024/05/off-wire-and-battery-streetcar-technology-explained

Off-Wire and Battery Streetcar Technology Explained
POSTED ON WEDNESDAY, MAY 15, 2024

The planned extension of the streetcar system's NS Line to Montgomery Park in Northwest Portland will look a little different from past projects. Why? There won't be any overhead wires!

The overhead catenary system (OCS) has been used on every inch of the Portland Streetcar system to date, connecting each streetcar vehicle by pantograph (that metal piece sticking up from the top of the streetcar) to provide power. The overhead wires offer a consistent source of electricity, allowing us to carry riders with 100% renewable energy.

Battery technology on streetcar systems has come a long way in the last decade. Battery-powered streetcars are in use in many other cities such as Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and Charlotte, North Carolina, where vehicles go off-wire for sections of their trips. This technology also provides additional resiliency in the event of a power outage--if a section of our system loses power, the vehicle and its riders won't be stranded.

Battery-powered streetcars charge while connected to the OCS and store that energy for use when running off-wire, meaning there isn't a need for additional charging time during which the streetcar would be out of service.

Why Off-Wire?

The complex infrastructure in this part of Northwest Portland makes catenary wires costly--and where this project meets the right-of-way of Highway 30, likely impossible. Building the project off-wire will make construction less expensive and less complicated without sacrificing later maintenance and operations needs. The versatility provided by off-wire vehicles can maintain consistent operations across the system in the event of a power outage, ice storm or other issues created by tricky spots on our alignment such as the Broadway Bridge.

Where will new vehicles come from?

Portland Streetcar's original fleet of vehicles are nearly 25 years old and are in need of replacement. Later in 2024 the City of Portland will begin procuring up to 15 new streetcars that will have off-wire capability, meaning that by the time this extension opens the vast majority of Portland's streetcar fleet will be able to serve this area. Because this is an extension of the NS Line and not a new route of its own, we don't need additional vehicles for the project.

Will I have to transfer?

No. Streetcars will simply lower their pantograph at a defined spot before entering the off-wire section, providing a seamless transition for riders.

Will this cost more money?

The use of off-wire technology provides substantial cost savings for this project. Eliminating the need for excavation, construction of poles, power substations and vaults, hanging wires and testing will save nearly $20 million dollars in construction costs according to preliminary engineering estimates. Because we're buying new streetcars anyway, there isn't an additional cost to the project for making any changes to our fleet or how we operate.

The short version?

Utilizing off-wire battery technology will save money building this project while also making our entire system more versatile and resilient. Investing in replacing our aging original fleet means cleaner, safer and more efficient vehicles and a better experience for our riders.

[zilfondel]

Using battery powered streetcars is a solution in search of a problem. It will add cost and a huge amount of weight to the streetcars, as well as require the streetcars batteries to be replaced at high cost during their midlife refresh. Assuming a 25 year lifespan, the batteries may require replacement before that point.

While it makes sense where a historic district, say in Paris or other old city center may mandate no overhead wires, that doesn't apply to Portland.

[uncommon.name]

Originally Posted by zilfondel

Using battery powered streetcars is a solution in search of a problem. It will add cost and a huge amount of weight to the streetcars, as well as require the streetcars batteries to be replaced at high cost during their midlife refresh. Assuming a 25 year lifespan, the batteries may require replacement before that point.

While it makes sense where a historic district, say in Paris or other old city center may mandate no overhead wires, that doesn't apply to Portland.

Are these assumptions or do you have actual data and research to back what you're saying? It would also be important to have long term cost analysis done on both models to gauge which is a better option financially. Having overhead wires present's it's own set of issues as well.

[dizflip]

City council approved Montgomery extension

https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/p...283-03c65e1e-b391-4180-a513-ea92e3c07305

[ThatDarnSacramentan]

Originally Posted by dizflip

City council approved Montgomery extension

https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/p...283-03c65e1e-b391-4180-a513-ea92e3c07305

I wonder what other extension ideas they might have after this one if it's successful.

[subterranean]

I recently took the streetcar for the first time in a while, from downtown to NW, for a recurring meeting I have. It was so damn slow and a pretty chattery ride. At one point we had to wait for another stopped street car to proceed near the steel bridge?

I understand different people have different mobility needs, but for my purposes, it was faster for me to walk the 16 blocks from Goose Hallow than it was to take the MAX west a few more stops, wait for the street car, then ride it as it slugged along. I can't imagine riding the thing all the way out to Montgomery.

As much shit as the system gets, I wish downtown Portland had an elevated circulator system like the People Mover in downtown Detroit, longer of course and in both directions.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by subterranean

I recently took the streetcar for the first time in a while, from downtown to NW, for a recurring meeting I have. It was so damn slow and a pretty chattery ride. At one point we had to wait for another stopped street car to proceed near the steel bridge?

I understand different people have different mobility needs, but for my purposes, it was faster for me to walk the 16 blocks from Goose Hallow than it was to take the MAX west a few more stops, wait for the street car, then ride it as it slugged along. I can't imagine riding the thing all the way out to Montgomery.

As much shit as the system gets, I wish downtown Portland had an elevated circulator system like the People Mover in downtown Detroit, longer of course and in both directions.

So it wasn't from downtown to NW, it was from Goose Hollow to NW? Of course it is going to be faster to walk a shorter distance than to take two rail systems out of your way to get to a location.

To break this down, from Jefferson to Kearney is 16 blocks, that is an 18 minute walk. To take the MAX and streetcar that would be a 36 minute commute since you have to go way out of your route to use trains. Thankfully we have a train and bus system because you could have taken a bus that is meant to fill in the gaps of where the trains don't go and that would have taken 11 minutes.

Now if someone is going to 19th and Kearney from the South Park Blocks of PSU, the streetcar would take 23 minutes, while walking would take 33 minutes. While taking a bus would require 2 buses and take just as long, if not longer than walking because the streetcar is the primary public transportation route and a bus isn't needed to fill in that gap.

[uncommon.name]

Originally Posted by dizflip

City council approved Montgomery extension

https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/p...283-03c65e1e-b391-4180-a513-ea92e3c07305

If my math is mathin'... a single streetcar costs $58 million!?

[subterranean]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

So it wasn't from downtown to NW, it was from Goose Hollow to NW? Of course it is going to be faster to walk a shorter distance than to take two rail systems out of your way to get to a location.

To break this down, from Jefferson to Kearney is 16 blocks, that is an 18 minute walk. To take the MAX and streetcar that would be a 36 minute commute since you have to go way out of your route to use trains. Thankfully we have a train and bus system because you could have taken a bus that is meant to fill in the gaps of where the trains don't go and that would have taken 11 minutes.

Now if someone is going to 19th and Kearney from the South Park Blocks of PSU, the streetcar would take 23 minutes, while walking would take 33 minutes. While taking a bus would require 2 buses and take just as long, if not longer than walking because the streetcar is the primary public transportation route and a bus isn't needed to fill in that gap.

What are you getting on about now? I came in from the western suburbs on the MAX and my choice was to get off and walk a literal mile north from Goose Hollow in the pouring rain, wait for a bus for 30 minutes, or to try the connection at the library.

This just feels like a half assed attempt at improving transit to that area, and at incredible expense. We could start by giving it signal priority and increasing the frequency, but to be perfectly frank, I think the entire West/NW area should be served by MAX, preferably underground.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by subterranean

What are you getting on about now? I came in from the western suburbs on the MAX and my choice was to get off and walk a literal mile north from Goose Hollow in the pouring rain, wait for a bus for 30 minutes, or to try the connection at the library.

This just feels like a half assed attempt at improving transit to that area, and at incredible expense. We could start by giving it signal priority and increasing the frequency, but to be perfectly frank, I think the entire West/NW area should be served by MAX, preferably underground.

So more details, walking 16 blocks in the pouring rain sounds much different. 30 minutes if you just miss the bus, but you are right that our bus frequency should be much better than that, especially for lines that fill in the gap like the 24 line.

An underground tunnel through downtown would be amazing, unfortunately it isn't gonna happen for a long time thanks to America electing a grifter.

[dizflip]

FWIW, also coming from the west side, that was my riding pattern as well to get to NW Everett & 13th (Tualatin WES > Beaverton TC > Library MAX > Central Library PS > NW 11th & Couch). It was just easier. But often the streetcar would take too long to show up, so I would end up walking from the library (also not a bad experience).

That said, I loved commuting on the WES and MAX, except the last southbound WES train was so early I could never grab a drink after class. Off topic now, but if TriMet could run the WES like it does the MAX, it would see SO much more ridership, they could effectively call it the MAX. AND if they dug a tunnel underneath Washington Square Mall and put a stop there, game over. (Sorry, I'm just dreaming now)

[babs]

Originally Posted by dizflip

FWIW, also coming from the west side, that was my riding pattern as well to get to NW Everett & 13th (Tualatin WES > Beaverton TC > Library MAX > Central Library PS > NW 11th & Couch). It was just easier. But often the streetcar would take too long to show up, so I would end up walking from the library (also not a bad experience).

That said, I loved commuting on the WES and MAX, except the last southbound WES train was so early I could never grab a drink after class. Off topic now, but if TriMet could run the WES like it does the MAX, it would see SO much more ridership, they could effectively call it the MAX. AND if they dug a tunnel underneath Washington Square Mall and put a stop there, game over. (Sorry, I'm just dreaming now)

I've been saying this for years. SW light rail should be extending the red line south along 217 with more stations and a flyout out to Washington Square. Would have many more riders than the original SW light rail plan with a route that has little redevelopment or TOD potential.

[uncommon.name]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

So more details, walking 16 blocks in the pouring rain sounds much different. 30 minutes if you just miss the bus, but you are right that our bus frequency should be much better than that, especially for lines that fill in the gap like the 24 line.

An underground tunnel through downtown would be amazing, unfortunately it isn't gonna happen for a long time thanks to America electing a grifter.

Yes, he's a complete buffoon, but how does that impact Portland and Oregon's history of shooting down nearly every major public works project that ever comes to the table?

[Jakz]

RFP out for engineering for the Montgomery Park streetcar extension.

https://bidbanana.thebidlab.com/bid/eZFPw9nXnVNNKnAVD0uy

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by Jakz

RFP out for engineering for the Montgomery Park streetcar extension.

https://bidbanana.thebidlab.com/bid/eZFPw9nXnVNNKnAVD0uy

Are they still looking at cableless streetcars? It would be a game changer for the city to be able to expand the streetcar system with only needing to lay tracks and build station platforms.