Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't know about that. Scottish independence hasn't really been any more of a consensus than Quebec independence

No consensus on independence, but absolute consensus on nationhood. 99% of Scots are in no doubt Scotland is a separate nation. The same cannot be said about Québec. Also, they all know their national Scottish heroes, historical battles, national poets and writers, etc. Nothing like that in Québec obviously. All that mythology doesn't exist in Québec, or is much more low key.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

You can call it whatever you want but there is open hostility to immigration. A lot of us Anglophones used to calling them xenophones are starting to see their point as rents soar and we see open chants for genocide on our streets (Like we are in Marseille or Brussels)

The hostility to immigration in Anglo-Canada is mostly economic. I really don't think there's as much concern about cultural conflict (even on Israel-Palestine) beyond people that are perpetually online (US here) or very political. In Quebec though, their paranoia over cultural preservation naturally leads to putting every difference under a microscope and ramping up cultural anxiety.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

No consensus on independence, but absolute consensus on nationhood. 99% of Scots are in no doubt Scotland is a separate nation. The same cannot be said about Québec. Also, they all know their national Scottish heroes, historical battles, national poets and writers, etc. Nothing like that in Québec obviously. All that mythology doesn't exist in Québec, or is much more low key.

More like 100% of Scots. Scotland has been a nation for centuries. Today it is one of the nations making up the United Kingdom. What it is not, since 1707, is a sovereign State.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

It always seems to me that things like that start out with the erroneous assumption that there's some kind of social or cultural parity among minority language communities in different parts of Canada. There are legal provisions, especially at the federal level, that apply to/protect such communities equally, and the provinces have their various rules, but the day-to-day reality is different depending on language and location.

I suppose that's true if you want to compare Franco-Newfoundlanders to Anglo-Montrealers, but there isn't anything other than anglo-supremacy and cultural hierarchism than can justify the differences between the situations of francophone Ottawans and Anglo-Montrealers.

The proportions of each minority community are about the same in either city, and francophones are even a higher share of Ottawa's metropolitan area population. Plus Ottawa literally borders Quebec and a very predominantly francophone city of 300,000 people. In addition to being the capital city of a bilingual country.

If anything, it should probably be way more easy to get by in Ottawa in French than it is to get by in Montreal in English.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As I alluded to, there is no "alternative path" to integration for a newcomer to Scotland unlike in Quebec, with all of the cultural and political baggage and socialization that goes along with that alternative choice.

If you move to Montreal, go to McGill, hang out with anglos, read the Gazette and listen to CJAD, are you really going to get an objective view of things that maybe Quebec sovereignists could possibly have a point?

In Scotland everyone by virtue of linguistic homogeneity is exposed to a much more diverse range of views on the topic.

It's not just a question of being exposed to the alternate POV. You're essentially asking those immigrants to vote for the risk of becoming second class citizens in a country that seeks to further a linguistic and cultural hierarchy. And given recent conflict with minorities in Quebec, why would any minority trust any pledge of accomodation in the future? And all this comes with all kinds of economic and political chaos as added bonuses.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I suppose that's true if you want to compare Franco-Newfoundlanders to Anglo-Montrealers, but there isn't anything other than anglo-supremacy and cultural hierarchism than can justify the differences between the situations of francophone Ottawans and Anglo-Montrealers.

The proportions of each minority community are about the same in either city, and francophones are even a higher share of Ottawa's metropolitan area population. Plus Ottawa literally borders Quebec and a very predominantly francophone city of 300,000 people. In addition to being the capital city of a bilingual country.

If anything, it should probably be way more easy to get by in Ottawa in French than it is to get by in Montreal in English.

Historically, there are major differences. Even today, there are reasons why Vanier retains a significant Franco presence. The Francophones who could make a change to the historical patterns are virtually all fluently and proudly bilingual.

And, as has been noted in the past, Canada is not a "bilingual country". It is an officially bilingual country at the federal level. Not the same thing at all.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

No consensus on independence, but absolute consensus on nationhood. 99% of Scots are in no doubt Scotland is a separate nation. The same cannot be said about Québec. Also, they all know their national Scottish heroes, historical battles, national poets and writers, etc. Nothing like that in Québec obviously. All that mythology doesn't exist in Québec, or is much more low key.

Well, yeah they have a way longer history than us.

A fairly high percentage of Quebecers would agree that Quebec is a nation as well, and of those who don't it's more political bias or strategy than sociological analysis.

Quebec literally feels more different from the rest of Canada than Scotland does from England. (Scots and ROCers absolutely hate it when I say this.)

Scotland vs England is more like Newfoundland vs Ontario. And even so, I think Newfoundland might feel more different from Ontario, in fact.

Quebec vs the ROC might not be France vs Germany, but it's definitely along the same lines as Suisse romande vs Deutschschweiz, or Wallonie vs Vlaanderen.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

If anything, it should probably be way more easy to get by in Ottawa in French than it is to get by in Montreal in English.

How do you account for tourism and commerce here? Most Western cities that get lots of tourists and are centres of commerce are easy to get by with English. I don't think it's much harder to get around Paris in English than Montreal.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Historically, there are major differences. Even today, there are reasons why Vanier retains a significant Franco presence. The Francophones who could make a change to the historical patterns are virtually all fluently and proudly bilingual.

And, as has been noted in the past, Canada is not a "bilingual country". It is an officially bilingual country at the federal level. Not the same thing at all.

A huge part of that historical legacy is the result of anglophones being elevated to a dominator's position for several centuries, and francophones being largely subjugated until the 1960s approximately.

I don't think this reality can be ignored when discussing the reasons things are the way they are today.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Quebec literally feels more different from the rest of Canada than Scotland does from England. (Scots and ROCers absolutely hate it when I say this.)

I wouldn't totally agree with that. It's not because Scotland speaks the same language as England (sort of) that it is not as different from England as Québec is from ROC. I've been to Scotland several times, even stayed in a Scottish family in my middle high school years, and it's just a different world compared to England. People "feel" very different (about themselves). You hear also lots of scathing comments about England and the English when you're in Scotland (which greatly surprised me when I first was there). The "they" (Englishmen) vs "us" is very, very strong in Scotland.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It's not just a question of being exposed to the alternate POV. You're essentially asking those immigrants to vote for the risk of becoming second class citizens in a country that seeks to further a linguistic and cultural hierarchy. And given recent conflict with minorities in Quebec, why would any minority trust any pledge of accomodation in the future? And all this comes with all kinds of economic and political chaos as added bonuses.

As I mentioned several times before, there is a (linguistic) fault line in Quebec that leads to some members of minorities seeing themselves as more apart from the larger society, more than what exists in Scotland.

It's not that anyone, either Québécois francophones, immigrants in Quebec, pasty white Scots with freckles, or immigrants to Scotland, is better or worse.

It's just the situation.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I don't think it's much harder to get around Paris in English than Montreal.

Stores in Paris don't say "bonjour/hi".

Only last week, I was at the dentist (I think I've said that already), and what I haven't said is at the entrance desk where the secretary receives patients there arrived a young woman (presumably Ukrainian or Russian) as I was about to leave, and she told the secretary "do you speak English?", the secretary answered a bit perturbed "un peu", then the lady explained she had no appointment, but needed to see a dentist urgently, bla bla bla, the secretary said no, impossible, so the lady said "when then?", and the secretary answered "jeudi", blank look on that Slavic lady's face, then "sorry, which day?", then the secretary turned to her colleague "comment on dit jeudi en anglais déjà?", then the Slavic woman gave up and left.

I don't think such a scene could happen in Montréal, right?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I wouldn't totally agree with that. It's not because Scotland speaks the same language as England (sort of) that it is not as different from England as Québec is from ROC. I've been to Scotland several times, even stayed in a Scottish family in my middle high school years, and it's just a different world compared to England. People "feel" very different (about themselves). You hear also lots of scathing comments about England and the English when you're in Scotland (which greatly surprised me when I first was there). The "they" (Englishmen) vs "us" is very, very strong in Scotland.

I am sympathetic to Scotland and I don't think that their desire to have their own country (if that's what they really want) is illegitimate just because they speak the same language as the English.

I do find that lots of people in the western world are in love with the Scots and the Irish in a flavour-of-the-month kind of way, as a kind of "alternative" to England that's still culturally accessible due to the language. But that don't have as many negatives associated with them as England.

As a result Scotland and the Scots tend to get a bit idealized and their distinctiveness can be a bit exaggerated.

When I think about it, the Scots vs English difference is also quite similar to Acadiens vs Québécois.

And another thing, if you think Scots are really that different from the English, why do you have so much difficulty in accepting that Anglo-Canadians are different from Americans?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Stores in Paris don't say "bonjour/hi".

Only last week, I was at the dentist (I think I've said that already), and what I haven't said is at the entrance desk where the secretary receives patients there arrived a young woman (presumably Ukrainian or Russian) as I was about to leave, and she told the secretary "do you speak English?", the secretary answered a bit perturbed "un peu", then the lady explained she had no appointment, but needed to see a dentist urgently, bla bla bla, the secretary said no, impossible, so the lady said "when then?", and the secretary answered "jeudi", blank look on that Slavic lady's face, then "sorry, which day?", then the secretary turned to her colleague "comment on dit jeudi en anglais déjà?", then the Slavic woman gave up and left.

I don't think such a scene could happen in Montréal, right?

Unlikely but not completely impossible. I witness it in Gatineau sometimes.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am sympathetic to Scotland and I don't think that their desire to have their own country (if that's what they really want) is illegitimate just because they speak the same language as the English.

I do find that lots of people in the western world are in love with the Scots and the Irish in a flavour-of-the-month kind of way, as a kind of "alternative" to England that's still culturally accessible due to the language. But that don't have as many negatives associated with them as England.

As a result Scotland and the Scots tend to get a bit idealized and their distinctiveness can be a bit exaggerated.

When I think about it, the Scots vs English difference is also quite similar to Acadiens vs Québécois.

And another thing, if you think Scots are really that different from the English, why do you have so much difficulty in accepting that Anglo-Canadians are different from Americans?

Other people need to stop setting some threshold for how distinctive someone needs to be in order to be allowed their own nation. Within the political boundaries that exist there are rules to be followed but many places have similar cultures and identical or similar languages and are full sovereign. Many places inside one nation can be completely different in every way. Like Quebec Scotland has a level of autonomy and the title of nation. Unlike Quebec they fought for hundreds of years and were oppressed subjugated and died for it.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

A huge part of that historical legacy is the result of anglophones being elevated to a dominator's position for several centuries, and francophones being largely subjugated until the 1960s approximately.

I don't think this reality can be ignored when discussing the reasons things are the way they are today.

We agree on the reasons, just not on the implications, I think.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And another thing, if you think Scots are really that different from the English, why do you have so much difficulty in accepting that Anglo-Canadians are different from Americans?

For starters, lots of Scots speak a language that is incomprehensible to the English people (or to you).

This (it's not a myth, language is really an issue in Scotland, especially in the Glasgow area where it's really hard to understand people, and they won't make an effort to accommodate their language to you, probably because they don't even realize they speak something incomprehensible to most outsiders):

• Video Link

By the way, this video is not even an exaggeration. I know some people in Scotland who speak just like the client in that video. Once I was travelling in Scotland with a friend from LA (born in LA, native English speaker). We had an accident, our car had to be towed back to London. The mechanic from Glasgow would tow us "only" to the Scottish-English border, no further (true story!), then it had to be a truck driver from England who towed us from the border to London. That mechanic from Glasgow spoke even worse than the client in the video above. My friend from LA was panicked because he barely understood half of what the guy was saying (and so did I), it was very embarrassing (sometimes I would just say to the mechanic "yes, sure" as if I had understood, in order not to sound impolite).

I doubt your average American couldn't understand half of what Anglo-Canadians say...

And then there are areas of Scotland where you understand absolutely... nothing!

• Video Link

Our accident took place in some remote corner of the Highlands, and at some point in our odyssey (long story) we were stuck in Fort William on a parking lot waiting for our mechanic from Glasgow to arrive, and the only available radio on the car radio what the one just above (I just figured out it was the news, like in this video). I really felt like in a foreign country!

[urbandreamer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Well, yeah they have a way longer history than us.

A fairly high percentage of Quebecers would agree that Quebec is a nation as well, and of those who don't it's more political bias or strategy than sociological analysis.

Quebec literally feels more different from the rest of Canada than Scotland does from England. (Scots and ROCers absolutely hate it when I say this.)

Scotland vs England is more like Newfoundland vs Ontario. And even so, I think Newfoundland might feel more different from Ontario, in fact.

Quebec vs the ROC might not be France vs Germany, but it's definitely along the same lines as Suisse romande vs Deutschschweiz, or Wallonie vs Vlaanderen.

True. Quebec feels more like Scotland than most of Canada west of Lake Huron.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

For starters, lots of Scots speak a language that is incomprehensible to the English people (or to you).

This (it's not a myth, language is really an issue in Scotland, especially in the Glasgow area where it's really hard to understand people, and they won't make an effort to accommodate their language to you, probably because they don't even realize they speak something incomprehensible to most outsiders):

• Video Link

By the way, this video is not even an exaggeration. I know some people in Scotland who speak just like the client in that video. Once I was travelling in Scotland with a friend from LA (born in LA, native English speaker). We had an accident, our car had to be towed back to London. The mechanic from Glasgow would tow us "only" to the Scottish-English border, no further (true story!), then it had to be a truck driver from England who towed us from the border to London. That mechanic from Glasgow spoke even worse than the client in the video above. My friend from LA was panicked because he barely understood half of what the guy was saying (and so did I), it was very embarrassing (sometimes I would just say to the mechanic "yes, sure" as if I had understood, in order not to sound impolite).

I doubt your average American couldn't understand half of what Anglo-Canadians say...

And then there are areas of Scotland where you understand absolutely... nothing!

• Video Link

Our accident took place in some remote corner of the Highlands, and at some point in our odyssey (long story) we were stuck in Fort William on a parking lot waiting for our mechanic from Glasgow to arrive, and the only available radio on the car radio what the one just above (I just figured out it was the news, like in this video). I really felt like in a foreign country!

The Glasgow accent is pretty thick, although the video was not that difficult to understand. You'd find equally challenging local accents within England itself. At least they wern't speaking the Doric or Gaelic.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

The Glasgow accent is pretty thick, although the video was not that difficult to understand. You'd find equally challenging local accents within England itself.

No, not at all. I must add that I was living in London at the time. Never had a problem with accents in England. Yes, sometimes a lower-class accent from London, or that weird accent from Birmingham, can be a bit more tricky, but absolutely nothing compares to the experience we had with that mechanic from Glasgow. It was almost like listening to a foreign tongue at times. Again, my friend was a native English speaker from LA, and he understood barely half of what the guy was saying (and this is not a situation where you can say "sorry, can you speak English?", so it was very embarrassing).

This guy also has that Glasgow accent (but I can't really find a video that would be as "alien" as how we felt listening to that guy that day).

• Video Link

Actually, the guy she interviews in that video is more or less how our mechanic sounded:

• Video Link