Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by mousquet

Is this supposed to be irony? Idk, ask the Québecois. They know better than I do.

As for myself, I never went to Canada. But I know some bits of the US, that some might call "real North America".
The most influential anyhow, whether it'd be good or bad.
Can you feel irony here?

Everyone knows what Québec is, we just don't know where it's going.

On the other hand, it's a bit unclear what the rest of Canada is, isn't it?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

On the other hand, it's a bit unclear what the rest of Canada is, isn't it?

Maple syrup, dirty tar sand oil, and mounted police? (plus woke virtue-signaling Trudeauism now, as well as la-la-land do-gooder international policy)

That's what most people outside of Canada have in mind I suppose when the name comes up in a conversation.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by niwell

I could see French declining in Sudbury but it does seem to be going strong in other parts of Northern Ontario, though it's a pretty small number of people overall. There's a French language university in Hearst (Université de Hearst) with a campus in Timmins. Anecdotally from my time there doing some public consultations the majority of the population in Hearst and Kapuskasing spoke French in daily conversation, though most people seemed bilingual.

It was the only part of Northern Ontario we brought a translator with us (Francophone originally from Gatineau) and did a bilingual consultation. Interestingly most of the people in attendance wanted our English language materials as opposed to the French stuff we brought because they didn't trust the translation! Also was an different attitude compared to other places - we were there to relay news of higher property taxes which rarely goes over well. Most places were pretty hostile (someone near Thunder Bay made sure we noticed the large knife on his belt...) but the general attitude in Hearst was "of course taxes go up, we just want to know how much!". Probably the most pleasant consultation I was involved in.

Also interesting to see hotel workers on lunch break enjoying a glass of red wine, which is something you wouldn't see in most small Ontario towns!

The reason that so many francophones wanted documents in English is because many can't read and write very well in French if they are older and were raised in Ontario. And sometimes it's because the translation was done in Quebec where terminology is quite different.

The area where francophones make up a majority is between Smooth Rock Falls and Hearst. Hearst is different than the other places not just because it's over 90% francophone but the town just has a different vibe. Maybe its isolation has something to do with it and maybe that it suffer through economically tough times like other places did in the region.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by lio45

Pretty sure I shared it already but in the summer of 2020 when I passed there, the girl manning the counter at the McD's in Hearst was a black francophone fresh immigrant from Subsaharan Africa.

So at least, if one wants to see that glass with a bit of liquid in it rather than mostly empty, some Franco-Ontarian areas get the lifeline of some immigration...

There is a limited amount of immigration in our region from francophone African countries. But outside Hearst being able to be served in French in the service industry is becoming much less common unfortunately as the vast majority of recent immigrants don't speak French.

[Hecate]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Everyone knows what Québec is, we just don't know where it's going.

On the other hand, it's a bit unclear what the rest of Canada is, isn't it?

Yes we all do know what Quebec is. Stolen indigenous lands. Just like the rest of Canada and North America.

[Hecate]

Originally Posted by mousquet

Is this supposed to be irony? Idk, ask the Québecois. They know better than I do.

As for myself, I never went to Canada. But I know some bits of the US, that some might call "real North America".
The most influential anyhow, whether it'd be good or bad.
Can you feel irony here?

Lolz. I always thought of the USA as the england of North America.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Hecate

Yes we all do know what Quebec is. Stolen indigenous lands. Just like the rest of Canada and North America.

This is a meaningless and solely strategic (as opposed to virtuous and noble) statement unless one intends to do something concrete about it.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Maple syrup, dirty tar sand oil, and mounted police? (plus woke virtue-signaling Trudeauism now, as well as la-la-land do-gooder international policy)

That's what most people outside of Canada have in mind I suppose when the name comes up in a conversation.

It's good to see anglo bashing is still alive and well in the Quebec separatism thread. I pop in for a quick look and this is what I'm confronted with. I'm glad I almost completely ignore this conversation now.

I'll show myself to the door now. See you again in 3-4 months............

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

It's good to see anglo bashing is still alive and well in the Quebec separatism thread. I pop in for a quick look and this is what I'm confronted with. I'm glad I almost completely ignore this conversation now.

I'll show myself to the door now. See you again in 3-4 months............

It's pretty accurate though. (Brief summary of modern Anglo-Canada as "dirty tar sand oil, mounted police, woke virtue-signaling Trudeauism, la-la-land do-gooder international policy")

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

The reason that so many francophones wanted documents in English is because many can't read and write very well in French if they are older and were raised in Ontario. .

Outside of Quebec, it's really only in northern New Brunswick where the vast majority of francophones have better written French and written English. As you say, it's because of schooling.

Bans on French schooling affected the French proficiency of francophones in all of the ROC provinces, and basically any francophone over 60-65 in all provinces except Quebec and New Brunswick is a product of schooling mostly in English.

Note that when the bans were lifted French schools only came back very slowly, starting with elementary schools here and there, and then very slowly with secondary schools as well.

Ontario has the second-largest francophone population in the country (after Quebec of course), and the oldest francophone high school in the province is barely over 50 years old.

(Even though they became a constitutional right with the 1982 Constitution and Charter, quite a few provinces dragged their feet and didn't really open French schools until the late 80s and early 90s, under pressure from the federal government.)

In New Brunswick though, even the oldest francophones alive today generally went to school in French. It shows in the level of their French, relative to the level of their English.

[urbandreamer]

I hear mostly French spoken whenever I'm in Sudbury Walmart and Canadian Tire. Same applies for Eastern Ontario towns like Embrun, Crysler, Casselman.

It's actually surprising the amount of French I hear walking down Queen West.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

I hear mostly French spoken whenever I'm in Sudbury Walmart and Canadian Tire. Same applies for Eastern Ontario towns like Embrun, Crysler, Casselman.

It's actually surprising the amount of French I hear walking down Queen West.

I don't think that's an accurate portrayal of the situation in Sudbury. You'll certainly hear some French any time you're out and about there, but it's not what you most commonly hear. Timmins and Cornwall are like this too. (And French is noticeably rarer in North Bay.)

French is definitely the main language in Casselman (and Hawkesbury too).

It's also very present in Embrun and Rockland, though under pressure there and receding fast. Those two places are the next Orleans.

There aren't many large retail businesses in Crysler so it's hard to judge the public presence of French vs English there.

[urbandreamer]

I was having a nap in Crysler by the community centre and only heard children speaking French.

And up in Val Therese and Capreol, all the old ladies who lunch types were speaking French, same in the grocery store and gas stations (minus the SA owners.)

But here's a thought: aside from Old Colony/Old Order Mennonites, the majority of Ontario Mennonites speak English. Yet have they lost their identity as a distinct people?

Or the English in Quebec? Molson Ex is upset he's not considered Quebecois, but so what?

[harls]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't think that's an accurate portrayal of the situation in Sudbury. You'll certainly hear some French any time you're out and about there, but it's not what you most commonly hear. Timmins and Cornwall are like this too. (And French is noticeably rarer in North Bay.)

French is definitely the main language in Casselman (and Hawkesbury too).

It's also very present in Embrun and Rockland, though under pressure there and receding fast. Those two places are the next Orleans.

There aren't many large retail businesses in Crysler so it's hard to judge the public presence of French vs English there.

Driving from Ottawa to Montreal, it's easy to forget you are travelling through Ontario if you stop for a coffee at Tim's in Casselman or gas at Herb's.

But Ontario still scares my unilingual French belle-mère, so she will always take the 50 to come visit.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Maple syrup, dirty tar sand oil, and mounted police? (plus woke virtue-signaling Trudeauism now, as well as la-la-land do-gooder international policy)

That's what most people outside of Canada have in mind I suppose when the name comes up in a conversation.

In my experience, many people outside of Canada actually think all Canadians speak French.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

I was having a nap in Crysler by the community centre and only heard children speaking French.

And up in Val Therese and Capreol, all the old ladies who lunch types were speaking French, same in the grocery store and gas stations (minus the SA owners.)

But here's a thought: aside from Old Colony/Old Order Mennonites, the majority of Ontario Mennonites speak English. Yet have they lost their identity as a distinct people?

Or the English in Quebec? Molson Ex is upset he's not considered Quebecois, but so what?

This post is all over the place. Can you please translate (if you will pardon the pun)?

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by lio45

It's pretty accurate though. (Brief summary of modern Anglo-Canada as "dirty tar sand oil, mounted police, woke virtue-signaling Trudeauism, la-la-land do-gooder international policy")

yeah, the rest of Canada loves being stereotyped, just like those living in Quebec enjoy being stereotyped. "You guys are nothing more than North Americans who happen to speak french. Deal with it!"

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Hecate

Yes we all do know what Quebec is. Stolen indigenous lands. Just like the rest of Canada and North America.

The site of Québec City (and I believe also Montréal?) was desert when the French settled there in the 1600s. The Indians who had lived there in the previous century had vanished decades before the French settled.

Also, of all the North American colonies, French Canada was the one that had the best relations with native Indians, and where their integration was the most advanced. For example in my mom's little corner of Normandy the daughter of a local aristocrat who had become a widow and was the sole heir of her father came into the possession of a large estate after her father's death in the middle of the 17th century, which she could manage as she wished since she was a widow without children, so she was one of these few women who were financially independent and could make their own choices, and this woman, who had read books about the natives of North America written by French Jesuits decided to spend her entire inheritance to found a convent and school to educate the daughters of native Indians of Québec. Her cousins (who would have otherwise inherited from her, and who had some level of oversight over the family inheritance, as per the custom law of Normandy back then) opposed her project, but she went to meet the queen mother (mother of Louis XIV) and the archbishop of Tours to explain to them her project, and she managed to get their assent.

So with the support of the queen and the archbishop, she embarked for French Canada, and founded the first ever school for women (native Indian women in that case) in all of North America, many decades before any school for girls was opened in the British colonies. She died in Québec City with the reputation of a saint several decades after settling there.

You could hardly find such a story in the British colonies (or even the Dutch and Swedish colonies), because you know how they treated the Indians...

The school and convent still exist today (I don't know how they survived English bombing in 1759):

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Luisito

In my experience, many people outside of Canada actually think all Canadians speak French.

That's true in the Francophone world, but I don't think that's true outside of the Francophone world. At least jusding from the SSC forum, non-Francophone forumers tend to see Canada as essentially an Anglophone country (and they also tend to see Switzerland as essentially German-speaking... it's fascinating how the French-speaking element is always forgotten).

As for the French, here I was referring to Anglo-Canada stereotypes. The way the French see Québec is different. I would say for them Québec is maple syrup (yes, something in common with Anglo-Canada), "nos cousins d'Amérique", long, very loooooong winters very very cold and snowy, Marcel Béliveau and that funny accent, and more recently a chance to experience the "American dream" without the hassle of having to speak (and learn) English (that's all the recent French emigration to Montréal).

[harls]

The only place I've actually seen a cop on a horse is during Canada Day on Parliament Hill.