Mayfair West (Oakridge Transit Centre Redevelopment) | Proposed

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

Which I think still isn't an issue, according to the Province or City:

"Staff recommended that new developments be exempt from the tax until they are sold to buyers so that developers aren't forced to pay additional fees if the housing market is slower than anticipated when their projects are available to the public.

Staff noted it was the same rule the province had for its own vacant homes tax, and Mayor Ken Sim framed it as making it easier for Vancouver to meet its supply goals by doing more to support development. "

And the market dictates that if you can't move a product, you cut the price. Why do you hate capitalism?

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by whatnext

And the market dictates that if you can't move a product, you cut the price. Why do you hate capitalism?

I'm just stating what the current rules are.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Vin

Let's look at the facts:
1. Oakridge is named after a village in Gloucestershire, England.

Source?

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

I'm just stating what the current rules are.

I was saying it somewhat tongue in cheek, but it is pretty clear Grosvenor should have cut prices on 889 Pacific to move those unsold units. They were overpriced.
By deferring the tax council just encourages the developer to build and hold more unaffordable units.

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by whatnext

I was saying it somewhat tongue in cheek, but it is pretty clear Grosvenor should have cut prices on 889 Pacific to move those unsold units. They were overpriced.
By deferring the tax council just encourages the developer to build and hold more unaffordable units.

We get the CACs so sounds like a win to me.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

We get the CACs so sounds like a win to me.

Having overpriced unsold units benefits nobody. How many beautiful empty penthouses are scattered across Vancouver's towers that could have been spilt up into smaller units? Residences at Hotel Georgia, Trump Tower, Kengo Kuma etc etc.

PS I assume you mean when the developer doesn't petition to delay CACs?

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Having overpriced unsold units benefits nobody. How many beautiful empty penthouses are scattered across Vancouver's towers that could have been spilt up into smaller units? Residences at Hotel Georgia, Trump Tower, Kengo Kuma etc etc.

PS I assume you mean when the developer doesn't petition to delay CACs?

They'll pay before people move in, same as with this location. This location's sales will gift us some nice stuff.

[MalcolmTucker]

I have to wonder about how we'll adapt to much lower CACs. CACs, DDCs and land for the old Chevron station works out to $800 thousand a unit. Totally unsustainable.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

I have to wonder about how we'll adapt to much lower CACs. CACs, DDCs and land for the old Chevron station works out to $800 thousand a unit. Totally unsustainable.

CACs would only be lower here if land values drop, and prices fall for condos sold in a location like this. It's purely a matter of the value of the additional space allowed in the rezoning, and the developer offering a proportion of that 'land lift' for the extra density they'd like, over the base zoning.

So far prices haven't fallen much (if at all) on new projects like 1698 W Georgia, so paying $800K per unit for a site (and CACs) will still make sense if they can sell them north of $2,000 per square foot, which seems to be the going rate in that area.

And the Oakridge Transit Centre CAC of $80m was almost all included on-site, as non-market housing, a childcare, and a public park.

[jollyburger]

They have some dates for the first few phases: 2028 Phase 1 and 2029 Phase 2 in their sales brochure for the retail component. Who knows what the final timing will be..

https://www.grosvenor.com/getattachm...pdf?lang=en-GB

[Feathered Friend]

With its “high quality” public realm & architecture, the Development Permit Board excitedly approved the first phase of Mayfair West, Vancouver’s newest neighbourhood. Despite its strong start, they hoped future stages would better reflect this former bus depot’s history.

https://www.instagram.com/p/C5enAyCvGuf/?img_index=1

[jollyburger]

Grosvenor - Property Americas has applied to the City of Vancouver, seeking to develop a Rectifier Substation building serving the existing TransLink trolley bus network, consisting of:

A single storey rectifier building located at the southwest corner of Parcel B, adjacent to existing lane
A floor area of approximately 340 m² (3,650 sq. ft.)
A maximum height of approximately 8 m (26 ft.)

https://www.shapeyourcity.ca/949-w-41-ave

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

They have some dates for the first few phases: 2028 Phase 1 and 2029 Phase 2 in their sales brochure for the retail component. Who knows what the final timing will be..

https://www.grosvenor.com/getattachm...pdf?lang=en-GB

Sounds like those dates weren't worth the paper they were printed on.
Times is hard for the Duke of Westminster apparently.

1,600-home housing project in Vancouver facing delays
Current developer says timelines agreed to by council and previous developer 'were never feasible'
Liam Britten · CBC News · Posted: Oct 18, 2024

The developer spearheading an over 1,600-home housing project in Vancouver's Oakridge neighbourhood — including 175 units of social housing — says it can't meet the timelines set by city council.

Grosvenor, the developer of the 5.5-hectare former Oakridge Transit Centre site on West 41st Avenue, is requesting a five-year extension on its deadline to build project amenities, including social housing, a public park and a 69-space daycare....

...Grosvenor's spokesperson says this is "due to the usual issues affecting our industry: market conditions, approval timelines, evolving government housing policies, and significant cost escalations across the board."....

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...lays-1.7357082

[Feathered Friend]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Sounds like those dates weren't worth the paper they were printed on.
Times is hard for the Duke of Westminster apparently.

The delays are to the original timeline from the rezoning application, which envisioned construction on the first phase starting in 2020 - the same year the rezoning was approved, and before Grosvenor had purchased the property.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Feathered Friend

The delays are to the original timeline from the rezoning application, which envisioned construction on the first phase starting in 2020 - the same year the rezoning was approved, and before Grosvenor had purchased the property.

Grosvenor is perfectly capable of funding and building the social housing by 2028 required under the original timeline. It is a measly 175 units.

Hopefully the politicos will grow a spine and not cave once again to wealthy developers crying poor.

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Grosvenor is perfectly capable of funding and building the social housing by 2028 required under the original timeline. It is a measly 175 units.

Hopefully the politicos will grow a spine and not cave once again to wealthy developers crying poor.

In glossing through the Report, it looks like the daycare, park, social housing (all in-kind CAC amenities worth just under $80 million)) all has to be delivered by Dec. 31, 2028.

Then there is the $31 million of DCLs. DCCs must be high as well. Then $2.5 million for art. I'm not 100% how all these payments work with a 4-phase project, but it isn't simple. (not to mention the millions on on and off-site roadway / public realm upgrades).

Not to mention I don't think the DP or BP have been issued and I'm unsure how many condo pre-sales for phase 1 would be needed for financing all this.

That's 4 years to get permits, start excavation, build in a market that currently isn't interested in newly-built condos. They might go to market in summer 2025, so that leaves 2.5 years.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

In glossing through the Report, it looks like the daycare, park, social housing (all in-kind CAC amenities worth just under $80 million)) all has to be delivered by Dec. 31, 2028.

Then there is the $31 million of DCLs. DCCs must be high as well. Then $2.5 million for art. I'm not 100% how all these payments work with a 4-phase project, but it isn't simple. (not to mention the millions on on and off-site roadway / public realm upgrades).

Not to mention I don't think the DP or BP have been issued and I'm unsure how many condo pre-sales for phase 1 would be needed for financing all this.

That's 4 years to get permits, start excavation, build in a market that currently isn't interested in newly-built condos. They might go to market in summer 2025, so that leaves 2.5 years.

Then they should be negotiating to defer the DCCs, the art, the park etc but not be permitted to defer the social housing.

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Then they should be negotiating to defer the DCCs, the art, the park etc but not be permitted to defer the social housing.

I thought they're asking to defer the whole timeline for the whole project.

Again the site is quite complex (phasing page 21):

"The social housing site (Parcel E) will be dedicated to the City or transferred to the City, for the nominal price of $1.00 prior to enactment of the CD-1 By-law, at the City’s sole discretion, subject to it being fully remediated to the City’s satisfaction and as described in Appendix B. Alternately, the City will have the option to purchase Parcel E for $1.00 on conditions and terms satisfactory to the City. The applicant will also be required to construct and deliver to the City, at the applicant’s sole cost, two buildings, with approximately 175 turnkey social housing units, during Phases 2 and 3 of the development process"

Phase 1 seems "the easiest" so to speak, but I'm not sure how phased projects work in detail with CAC / DCL / DCC and service connections / parkade construction costs:

"The first phase of development will include construction of all the secured rental housing, including moderate income rental housing units" - also has a large condo component, which no one in their right mind would go to market today for... again likely in 2025.

So phase 2 / 3 completed by 2028 when phase 1 might start excavation by late 2025 or maybe early 2026 just doesn't seem possible.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

I thought they're asking to defer the whole timeline for the whole project.

Again the site is quite complex (phasing page 21):

"The social housing site (Parcel E) will be dedicated to the City or transferred to the City, for the nominal price of $1.00 prior to enactment of the CD-1 By-law, at the City’s sole discretion, subject to it being fully remediated to the City’s satisfaction and as described in Appendix B. Alternately, the City will have the option to purchase Parcel E for $1.00 on conditions and terms satisfactory to the City. The applicant will also be required to construct and deliver to the City, at the applicant’s sole cost, two buildings, with approximately 175 turnkey social housing units, during Phases 2 and 3 of the development process"

Phase 1 seems "the easiest" so to speak, but I'm not sure how phased projects work in detail with CAC / DCL / DCC and service connections / parkade construction costs:

"The first phase of development will include construction of all the secured rental housing, including moderate income rental housing units" - also has a large condo component, which no one in their right mind would go to market today for... again likely in 2025.

So phase 2 / 3 completed by 2028 when phase 1 might start excavation by late 2025 or maybe early 2026 just doesn't seem possible.

Yes they are looking to defer the whole thing. I'm saying councillors need to stop letting developers off the hook and not defer the social housing component. We need affordable housing ASAP, not at the Duke of Westminster's convenience.

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Yes they are looking to defer the whole thing. I'm saying councillors need to stop letting developers off the hook and not defer the social housing component. We need affordable housing ASAP, not at the Duke of Westminster's convenience.

I's have to go way back in more detail, but I think the phase 2 social housing component is in the same structures as the condos, and prioritizing the construction of a separate social housing building would likely require a rezoning re-submission, which would not allow them to hit a Dec. 2028 Occupancy date either.

Phase 3's "Parcel E", if I'm reading this right, might be a stand alone social housing building that they build and hand over to the City. But even then that isn't all 175 units by Dec. 2028, if some kind of arrangement is made to proceed with phase 3 1st, and the current designs allow this, funding, cost for construction site access (new roads and infrastructure), etc.

Remediation, new roads and sewer and utilities for under 175 units of social housing feels hard to finance.