Pre, Primary and Secondary Education

[phil235]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Kind of frustrating to see poorly used schools in the Anglo system, and then Ashcroft letting a beautiful former school rot on McLeod.

Do you know the history of that property? It's been empty since I moved to Ottawa, which is terrible in such a prime location. I struggle to see how the economics can possibly work with land that valuable empty for a couple of decades.

Presumably the English public board had to offer the property to the French boards before it sold? I remember a proposal to build a condo with a school in the bottom that fell through, but crickets since.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by phil235

Do you know the history of that property? It's been empty since I moved to Ottawa, which is terrible in such a prime location. I struggle to see how the economics can possibly work with land that valuable empty for a couple of decades.

Presumably the English public board had to offer the property to the French boards before it sold? I remember a proposal to build a condo with a school in the bottom that fell through, but crickets since.

Sorry, Gilmour.

It was last used as the Ottawa Board of Education HQ from my understanding, which fused with the Ottawa-Carleton District School Board in 1998.

In 2009, Ashcroft had a proposal for 7 floors that went to the OMB. Went up to 14 floors in 2017, when the French Catholic School Board started working with them on re-opening an elementary school as part of the project. In 2018, Ashcroft abandoned the project, and the deal with the FCSB fell through.

Here's what we have on it:

https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...hlight=gilmour

[phil235]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Sorry, Gilmour.

It was last used as the Ottawa Board of Education HQ from my understanding, which fused with the Ottawa-Carleton District School Board in 1998.

In 2009, Ashcroft had a proposal for 7 floors that went to the OMB. Went up to 14 floors in 2017, when the French Catholic School Board started working with them on re-opening an elementary school as part of the project. In 2018, Ashcroft abandoned the project, and the deal with the FCSB fell through.

Here's what we have on it:

https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...hlight=gilmour

Thanks. You've got to wonder if the school building is even going to be salvageable at this point after 15 years of abandonment. I suppose that once the property leaves the hands of the school board, there are no rules at all about how it is used (or not used)

[Acajack]

Isn't there some kind of law where if a school property is unused by a school board, it needs to be offered to all other school boards before it can be put on the commercial market? This makes sense as it's a public asset and taxpayers support all school boards.

(Can't remember if this law is Ontario or Quebec, though.)

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Isn't there some kind of law where if a school property is unused by a school board, it needs to be offered to all other school boards before it can be put on the commercial market? This makes sense as it's a public asset and taxpayers support all school boards.

(Can't remember if this law is Ontario or Quebec, though.)

Yep, it's the law in Ontario. They have changed the process a bit since 2023, but the old one required an English public board to first offer the property to a list of entities. Basically it goes French public, English Catholic, French Catholic in that order. It then moves to the local health network, board of health, the province, then the municipality. This is the old regulation:

https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/980444#BK4

So before the public board sold this property, it would have had to offer it to the French school boards.

[J.OT13]

It's possible that 20 years ago, the French Boards had different needs. Population seems to have grown 10%-15% easy since then. It does seem like they had a plan to open a school within the private development at some point 15 years ago. Did they let it go to Ashcroft based on false promises? Who knows.

Recent changes sound like the Provincial Government can now force School Boards to sell their properties, but I have a feeling this law was tailored in a way to benefit developers, not other School Boards and public entities.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

It's possible that 20 years ago, the French Boards had different needs. Population seems to have grown 10%-15% easy since then. It does seem like they had a plan to open a school within the private development at some point 15 years ago. Did they let it go to Ashcroft based on false promises? Who knows.

Quite possibly, it just seems shortsighted. Much like many of the school closures that happened in the central city in that era now look shortsighted.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Francophone pop makes up around 50% in Rideau-Vanier and 10% in Centretown and the urban west end. The lack of options for the Franco population is quite bad.

Kind of frustrating to see poorly used schools in the Anglo system, and then Ashcroft letting a beautiful former school rot on McLeod.

Sure hope we can get something at LeBreton Flats, with excellent transit access.

50% seems very high. The hard done by schtick seems overdone. What are these poorly used not falling apart anglo schools in the area? High Schools need to be large enough to offer a good amount of services so given our 4 school boards some of them will be spread out.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

50% seems very high. The hard done by schtick seems overdone. What are these poorly used not falling apart anglo schools in the area? High Schools need to be large enough to offer a good amount of services so given our 4 school boards some of them will be spread out.

Is it a schtick? There is an area of town that has the population to warrant a school, but doesn't have one. Francophone kids currently have to travel too far to go to school. Seems pretty straightforward.

Agreed that there are no underused school buildings that would be suitable for a high school. They will need to build from scratch. For elementary, Cambridge St and McNabb come to mind, in addition to the one on Gilmour.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

50% seems very high. The hard done by schtick seems overdone. What are these poorly used not falling apart anglo schools in the area? High Schools need to be large enough to offer a good amount of services so given our 4 school boards some of them will be spread out.

Ottawa Tech for sure. I don't remember ever seeing anyone go in or out of that building. The Adult High School I've heard is underused, but can't confirm. I remember a letter to the editor in the Citizen a few weeks ago disputing the claim it was nowhere near capacity.

There are others according to some on the forum.

Yes, 50% is not right. I was looking at language knowledge data, not first spoken language. It's 27%. 31% if you count those who identified French and English as their first official language.

https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-r...1&HEADERlist=0

[J.OT13]

If anyone can enlighten me on what the heck is going on at Ottawa Tech, I'd be happy to hear it.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

If anyone can enlighten me on what the heck is going on at Ottawa Tech, I'd be happy to hear it.

Adult and continuing education:

https://www.ocdsb.ca/continuing_education

I walk by there most mornings and there are definitely lots of people going in.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by phil235

Is it a schtick? There is an area of town that has the population to warrant a school, but doesn't have one. Francophone kids currently have to travel too far to go to school. Seems pretty straightforward.

Agreed that there are no underused school buildings that would be suitable for a high school. They will need to build from scratch. For elementary, Cambridge St and McNabb come to mind, in addition to the one on Gilmour.

Look at a map of French High Schools. They are spread out because they need a large area to be full. Lasalle was just expanded so the French Board decided that made sense. Spending $50 million to build a school in Westboro sounds great but given all the falling apart schools I think we are in the maintain the infrastructure we have more than building new gleaming buildings stage.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Look at a map of French High Schools. They are spread out because they need a large area to be full. Lasalle was just expanded so the French Board decided that made sense. Spending $50 million to build a school in Westboro sounds great but given all the falling apart schools I think we are in the maintain the infrastructure we have more than building new gleaming buildings stage.

Sure, they have bigger catchment areas, but there is still a huge gap in the centre-west of the city. You've got to remember that there are kids who would go to French high school from those areas but choose English schools because they don't want to (or can't) spend an hour and a half in transit every day. The demand exceeds the current enrolments.

Not sure what schools are falling apart or how that has a bearing on whether we build a new school in an area that needs it. Are you suggesting that we shouldn't build new schools in areas of increasing population until we have fixed all of the existing ones? New suburbs probably wouldn't be keen on that approach.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by phil235

Adult and continuing education:

https://www.ocdsb.ca/continuing_education

I walk by there most mornings and there are definitely lots of people going in.

Is that much different than what the Adult High School on Preston offers?

I wish schools would post number of students/capacity, kind of like Sim City. Otherwise, everyone just seems to speculate.

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Look at a map of French High Schools. They are spread out because they need a large area to be full. Lasalle was just expanded so the French Board decided that made sense. Spending $50 million to build a school in Westboro sounds great but given all the falling apart schools I think we are in the maintain the infrastructure we have more than building new gleaming buildings stage.

Downtown, Centretown and LeBreton, along with the urban west end, are all seeing significant growth. I'm not sure why it's so hard to imagine we would need new francophone schools in the central area for today and for the near future.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by phil235

Sure, they have bigger catchment areas, but there is still a huge gap in the centre-west of the city. You've got to remember that there are kids who would go to French high school from those areas but choose English schools because they don't want to (or can't) spend an hour and a half in transit every day. The demand exceeds the current enrolments.

Francophone school boards have statistics on how many kids would be eligible to attend their schools as opposed to how many that actually do.

Obviously proximity to francophone schools and travel time is not the only factor but it is a big one.

A news story from last year said that under 50% of kids eligible to go to French school in Ontario are enrolled in francophone schools.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Francophone school boards have statistics on how many kids would be eligible to attend their schools as opposed to how many that actually do.

Obviously proximity to francophone schools and travel time is not the only factor but it is a big one.

A news story from last year said that under 50% of kids eligible to go to French school in Ontario are enrolled in francophone schools.

What's "eligible"? When I hear that, I think of Quebec's strict laws for eligibility to attend anglophone schools (parents had to be educated in English in Canada, or something to that effect).

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

What's "eligible"? When I hear that, I think of Quebec's strict laws for eligibility to attend anglophone schools (parents had to be educated in English in Canada, or something to that effect).

The eligibility for French school in Ontario is much lower. Many full Anglophones also send their kids there. Guess they have to pass some kind of a French test but in JK you can probably get away with it. I am sure having a school closer would help but a lot of those choosing English schools are doing it for other reasons.

[Acajack]

Eligibility for minority language schooling (English in Quebec, French outside Quebec) is set out in the Constitution and the rules are basically the same for either.

The difference is in how it's applied. In Quebec the Ministry of Education keeps control of who gets to go to English school based on prior Canadian learning in English by the child, the parent or a sibling.

In Ontario at least, the responsibility for determining a child's eligibility for French school (supposed to be based on the same criteria) is devolved to francophone school boards, and in some cases to individual school principals.

This means that often the application of the rules is way more flexible because the francophone schools are starved for students as they are funded per pupil.

On the other hand in some cases francophone boards or principals may be more stringent as they want to keep non-francophone kids out because if there are too many the language of the hallways and schoolyard becomes English. You see this with the Ottawa francophone Catholic school board which is harder to get into because they have no shortage of students as they're the board the vast majority of French Canadians in Ottawa send their kids to.

We've also seen a few provinces and territories in the ROC apply the eligibility rules more strictly in order to keep enrolment down and get out of the obligation of building more francophone schools.

[J.OT13]

Thanks for the info. Wasn't aware of exactly that all worked.