Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

It could be seen as odd that French students will get a better deal than MOC students going to French-language universities in Quebec, but since it's part of a bilateral arrangement, I don't see why it would give rise to undue concerns.

They will also get a better deal going to English-language universities in Québec. This doesn't apply to French-language universities only.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Loco101

Canada had let in lots of Muslim immigrants over the last number of decades.

Nowhere near the levels seen in France. The problems will start when Montréal has concentrations of 2nd and 3rd generation Muslim immigrants as high as those in large French cities.

Originally Posted by Loco101

What are you talking about PCness and Anglo-Saxon acceptance?!? What are we accepting?!?

I mean that outside of Québec, opposing the veil is seen as racist and PCness requires to happily accept veiled women as if it was just a neutral fashion accessory. Also, communitarianism means the government is unwilling to fight backward traditions among Muslim immigrants, and considers it just as a quaint aspect of their "community" that must be respected. There is no sense of universal values that must be defended against encroachments by a backward religion. Until it is too late.

Québec is more concerned by this than the rest of Canada, since they welcome much more Muslim immigrants. Of course Québec has less of that Anglo-Saxon communitarian approach, but they are constrained by the federal government/courts and medias from the ROC.

One aspect where Anglo-Saxons countries have an advantage, however, is in general they have a far harsher justice system. France has a very lax justice system, more than half of felonies and misdemeanors do not lead to a prison sentence. And 40% of prison sentences are not enforced. Since 2019, prison terms of less than 6 months are automatically not enforced anymore. French judges often prefer "rappel à la loi" (judge reminding the delinquent of the law, like WTF!!) or "travail d'intérêt général" (community work of a few hours instead of a prison term). So that gives the offenders a sense that everything is allowed, with little consequences. In Anglo-Saxon countries, usually, there are consequences if one breaks the law.

For example the 3 teenagers who beat a 13 y/o Muslim girl into a coma just outside of her school in Montpellier last week because she used some make-up and didn't wear a veil (they called her "kuffar", which means "miscreant", "infidel", "unbeliever" in Arabic), and who have recognized the facts and been indicted with attempted homicide, have been released from custody and placed under judicial control, without even a bail. What sort of message does this send to other would-be offenders?? And they don't risk all that much, because in France people under 18 y/o are outrageously protected by the justice system due to an outdated law from 1945 that has not been amended to reflect changes in society (the French Left is absolutely opposed to lowering the age at which a teenager can be sentenced by regular criminal courts and sentenced to the same sentences as an adult, so it remains at 18, and gangs routinely use people under 18 to commit crimes because they know they risk little).

[Acajack]

I wouldn't say Canada has a harsh legal system in 2024.

Things are very lax here today as well, even with very violent criminals, certain forms of hate speech and propaganda and also dangerous behaviours like hard drug use in proximity to schools and other children's spaces.

This can "benefit" (sic) all people who have bad behaviour though, not just people of certain religions.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I wouldn't say Canada has a harsh legal system in 2024.

What about the rest of Canada? UK, US, Australia certainly all have very harsh justice systems compared to France (long prison terms, prison terms enforced even for petty crimes, possibility to cumulate prison terms and end with "223 years in jail" or things like that, severe bails, etc).

For example in Australia some environmentalist who blocked roads were sentenced to jail (and it was enforced). Same in the UK. In France, those same people are either not condemned, or simply given a "rappel à la loi" (judge reminding them of the law). Recently some of these environmentalist extremists in France who had destroyed private property (of farmers) were condemned to pay a fine (not a prison term, but just a fine), and this was considered super "strict" (and the French Left attacked the decision of the judge, saying environmentalists are whistle-blowers and shouldn't be found guilty in courts).

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

What about the rest of Canada?

The criminal code is national in Canada.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Nowhere near the levels seen in France. The problems will start when Montréal has concentrations of 2nd and 3rd generation Muslim immigrants as high as those in large French cities.

X for doubt.

France ghettoizes Muslims in ways that Canadians would never dream of doing or even understand. That is the root of your problems over there. We don't have anything like that in Canada. And (hopefully) never will. Partly because of the immigration system and its selectivity. And because most of our cities don't have anything like the projects you have in the banlieues of Paris.

The closest situation to what you describe isn't actually Muslims in Canada. Probably one could say we have similar challenges with our aboriginal population who have been locked out of the mainstream and have high rates of everything from unemployment to poverty to homelessness to substance abuse. And if we're talking immigrants, I'd say maybe Brampton and the Punjabis there, or Scarborough and Tamils are kind of ghettoized. Still not as bad as Paris. And there's not one area I can think of where Muslims are concentrated (which aren't that many to begin with) which would be problematic. You're projecting.

Also culture. In France, Mohammed can be third generation and will still not be fully seen as French. In Canada, first generation Mohammed will be seen as Canadian if he doesn't have an accent and plays hockey. I can't imagine the frustrations of only knowing the country you grow up in and still not being accepted. The New World is very lucky not to have the exclusion of the Old World.

[Acajack]

I wouldn't say that something like that could never happen in Canada.

There is growing public disorder in Canada and this is a oncern, but yes it is correct to say that unlike France here it is not predominantly associated with people of a specific religion.

[Acajack]

I am not fond of the classic Canadian dismissal that "this could never happen here!", especially since lots of things we never thought could happen here, ended up happening here.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The criminal code is national in Canada.

As are sentencing, release, bail and parole laws and guidelines, all of which is where the current problems seem to be coming from.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am not fond of the classic Canadian dismissal that "this could never happen here!", especially since lots of things we never thought could happen here, ended up happening here.

It is a very annoying tendency, but based on current experiences and even trends it's still *unlikely* to happen here. I did a cursory check and the Montreal area is about 9% Muslim while the GTA is close to 10%, many of whom I would imagine are second or third generation (I work with a couple). Issues I'd be more worried about are part of a broader social unravelling rather than something religious specific.

The only specific circumstance I can think of is the experience of Somali immigrants in Ottawa, and from my experiences religion isn't exactly the driving factor there. Those issues weren't nearly as predominant in Somali communities in Toronto either.

[Truenorth00]

I can sum up (as an immigrant) the difference between old world and new world easily, describing an interaction that is now routine for me at every NATO meeting I attend in Europe.

I have grown up in Canada since the age of 11. I have no accent. I have a very Western name (think "Russell Peters"). I have over 20 years in the military. No Canadian will ever ask me when I moved to Canada. Literally never been asked that question once. From the smallest towns to the biggest cities. In any of the 9 provinces I have seen. This is a point of pride for me as a Canadian.

Europeans at every NATO meeting, within the first 5 minutes of meeting them, while talking to me in uniform with Canada written on my epaulet, after I've delivered a statement on behalf of our government: "So like when did you move to Canada...."

First time I got that question I was shocked. Cause I'd never got that question in Canada. Now I'm used to that question. And depending on the person I'll try to turn it around and make it uncomfortable for them. They don't seem to understand how inappropriate that is. Especially in a professional setting. That's how normalized their racism is. Makes me wonder if they were listening to my presentation or trying to do some racial conjuring in their head the whole time.

I have gotten this question from Americans. But never in a professional setting and only from old white folks. Usually with some weird complement of how my English is really good.

These experiences have made me incredibly grateful that my parents chose Canada. We had family in the UK and Austria and my parents had toyed with the idea of moving to those countries when I was a kid. I can't imagine growing up in a country that will never accept you at a base level.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by niwell

It is a very annoying tendency, but based on current experiences and even trends it's still *unlikely* to happen here. I did a cursory check and the Montreal area is about 9% Muslim while the GTA is close to 10%, many of whom I would imagine are second or third generation (I work with a couple). Issues I'd be more worried about are part of a broader social unravelling rather than something religious specific.

The only specific circumstance I can think of is the experience of Somali immigrants in Ottawa, and from my experiences religion isn't exactly the driving factor there. Those issues weren't nearly as predominant in Somali communities in Toronto either.

I was actually thinking of adding the exact same thing about the Somali community in Ottawa. The issues there aren't really religious-based.

Though their women have started covering up a lot more than they did when they first arrived in the 90s. I briefly dated a Somali girl in the 90s and neither she, her family, her friends and no one in her entourage covered up at all at the time.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I was actually thinking of adding the exact same thing about the Somali community in Ottawa. The issues there aren't really religious-based.

Though their women have started covering up a lot more than they did when they first arrived in the 90s. I briefly dated a Somali girl in the 90s and neither she, her family, her friends and no one in her entourage covered up at all at the time.

How big is their community in Ottawa though? Like one apartment building? They aren't huge. Especially compared to say the Lebanese Muslim community in Ottawa. And that difference does show it's more cultural than religious per se.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

How big is their community in Ottawa though? Like one apartment building? They aren't huge. Especially compared to say the Lebanese Muslim community in Ottawa. And that difference does show it's more cultural than religious per se.

About 20000 people I'd say.

The Lebanese community in Ottawa is much larger of course but is quite predominantly Christian.

[Acajack]

In Québec people won't ask you where you're from if you speak with a Québec accent, but they might ask you about your background out of curiosity as opposed to deliberate "othering".

You're right about ROCers as immigrant friends I have tell me that no one there ever asks them about anything of that sort. It's interpreted in different ways depending on the person: discretion, reserve, tolerance, lack of curiosity about others, social coldness, etc.

Québécois have a reputation for being more outward in their cultural curiosity. ROCers are obsessive about minding their own business.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I can sum up (as an immigrant) the difference between old world and new world easily, describing an interaction that is now routine for me at every NATO meeting I attend in Europe.

I have grown up in Canada since the age of 11. I have no accent. I have a very Western name (think "Russell Peters"). I have over 20 years in the military. No Canadian will ever ask me when I moved to Canada. Literally never been asked that question once. From the smallest towns to the biggest cities. In any of the 9 provinces I have seen. This is a point of pride for me as a Canadian.

Europeans at every NATO meeting, within the first 5 minutes of meeting them, while talking to me in uniform with Canada written on my epaulet, after I've delivered a statement on behalf of our government: "So like when did you move to Canada...."

First time I got that question I was shocked. Cause I'd never got that question in Canada. Now I'm used to that question. And depending on the person I'll try to turn it around and make it uncomfortable for them. They don't seem to understand how inappropriate that is. Especially in a professional setting. That's how normalized their racism is. Makes me wonder if they were listening to my presentation or trying to do some racial conjuring in their head the whole time.

I have gotten this question from Americans. But never in a professional setting and only from old white folks. Usually with some weird complement of how my English is really good.

These experiences have made me incredibly grateful that my parents chose Canada. We had family in the UK and Austria and my parents had toyed with the idea of moving to those countries when I was a kid. I can't imagine growing up in a country that will never accept you at a base level.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The criminal code is national in Canada.

Yeah, but enforcement can differ from judge to judge. Are the Anglophone judges in Anglo Canada as lax as the Francophone judges in Québec?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Yeah, but enforcement can differ from judge to judge. Are the Anglophone judges in Anglo Canada as lax as the Francophone judges in Québec?

As I mentioned the rules all juges follow in Canada are federal.

Plus the higher judges for more important matters like criminal cases are named by the federal government, even if they are generally francophones.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

France ghettoizes Muslims in ways that Canadians would never dream of doing or even understand.

You make it sound as if it's a public policy. It isn't a policy. It is a natural phenomenon that took place over time. Muslim immigrants weren't ghettoized in the 1970s. In fact the French government had an active policy of eradicating the slums where a part of the Maghreban immigrants were living in the 1960s and early 1970s.

So we'll see how it develops over time in Canada. One point where you're right is that Canada is more selective in terms of the education and skill levels of its immigrants, so this could play a (favorable) role for Canada. But are you suggesting France should imprison and deport all the illegal immigrants that arrive here after crossing the Med, plus severally curtail the rights for Algerians and other Muslim people with low education/skills to move to France? End of family reunification for example?

Also, are you suggesting that, as in Socialist-ruled Denmark, the authorities should check the ethnicity/religion of people and actively prevent the formation of mono-ethnic or mono-religious neighborhoods by denying social housing to certain ethnic and religious minorities in neighborhoods that cross a certainly threshold (say, more than 15% of Muslim people)? This policy would be considered fascist by the French Left and most French media, yet it's official policy in Left-wing Denmark.

You can't accuse these policies of being fascist/too extreme AND at the same time accuse France of "ghettoizing" its immigrants by being too lax.

[Acajack]

The main reasons French didn't fare so well in the US compared to Canada;

Lack of numbers and critical mass in the US

Lack of a larger scale pre-established organized society operating in French in the US prior to areas lost to French control and becoming American

Areas of the US where francophones lived being more attractive to non-French migrants than the St Lawrence valley in Canada

Especially the demographic factors and the relatively slow growth of the non-French population in Canada (compared to the US) meant that authorities here had to "contend" with the French population more here.

None of this is related to being nice.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In Québec people won't ask you where you're from if you speak with a Québec accent, but they might ask you about your background out of curiosity as opposed to deliberate "othering".

You're right about ROCers as immigrant friends I have tell me that no one there ever asks them about anything of that sort. It's interpreted in different ways depending on the person: discretion, reserve, tolerance, lack of curiosity about others, social coldness, etc.

Québécois have a reputation for being more outward in their cultural curiosity. ROCers are obsessive about minding their own business.

I can understand if one has an accent. Obviously when I speak French, my horrendous Anglo accent is going to give me away. I can expect those questions then. I don't (and shouldn't) expect questions when I speak English.

Also, FWIW, as I said earlier, I have never gotten these questions in Canada. Not from any Francophone or Québecois I've met. Both at work or personally.