Heavy Rail, Commuter Rail, & Intercity Transportation

[Vin]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Either way, you need to make an express bus work first. Build ridership. A non-stop bus from some "central" Abbotsford location to Mission for WCE.

I put central in quotes because I don't know Rabbit'sTurd has a centre.

This:

https://www.google.com/maps/@49.0489649,...hekHiDYequg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

There could be a new station here at Essendene/W Railway Street, and is central enough for Abbotsford's main station. This is just a hop away from Abbotsford's most interesting and historical neighbourhood. Higher density housing and commercial buildings can also sprout up around it.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Vin

This:

https://www.google.com/maps/@49.0489649,...hekHiDYequg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

There could be a new station here at Essendene/W Railway Street, and is central enough for Abbotsford's main station. This is just a hop away from Abbotsford's most interesting and historical neighbourhood. Higher density housing and commercial buildings can also sprout up around it.

Well... i admit I was a little tongue in cheek and yeah... that really is the only place you should put a station, given the tracks are already there. It just seems that Abby just doesn't want anything. Like... is Abby even REALLY petitioning for a WCE? And would they be willing to CREATE an actual downtown there?

Right now, pretty much all of South Fraser Way is "downtown" and a rail station would would provide a central point to rally around.

[ssiguy]

This potential station in Abbey exemplifies my point. It may not be needed now but in 30 years it could be essential. This is why buying up portions of a track and zoning around the stations be left only for transportation is essential.

Vancouver's freight rail system is vastly more important than Toronto's is but when GO wanting to expand it's system 40 years ago the CN/CP were dead set against it. They stated giving up such lines was impossible for them UNTIL Queens Park started waving juicy cheques in front of them and then they had a miraculous change of heart.

Now, GO and all Torontonians are reaping the benefits of that long-term planning by expanding their GO service from 1500 trips a week 10 years ago to a whopping 12,000 a week by 2030. This, with electrification which can only be done due to owning the tracks,, will add 270 km of true rapid transit with trains running every 6 to 7 minutes, each way all day with 15 minute all day service to far off suburbs like Hamilton/Kitchener/Barrie.

Now Metrolinx is in discussions with CP to being able to build the Brampton freight by-pass allowing ML to buy up the Milton corridor creating a cross-town rapid transit route by passing the entire downtown. It's called LONG term transportation planning for the next 100 years not what will get you by for the next 20.

That does NOT mean freight can not necessarily use the tracks but only can at the whim of GO overnight. Even KW ION LRT allows freight to run on the adjacent tracks overnight. Hell, even Tokyo allows some freight usage along it's transit corridors overnight and if there is one city on this planet that can learn NOTHING from any other transit agency, it's Tokyo.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Freight lines in Ontario go to places that people want to go. Freight lines in BC do not. Polish a turd all you want, it's still a turd.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Freight lines in Ontario go to places that people want to go. Freight lines in BC do not. Polish a turd all you want, it's still a turd.

I'm sure there were plenty of commuter train naysayers like yourself before GO went so widespread. Good thing the decision makers did not cave to them back then. Let's hope better informed people here can support the WCE expansion in the longer term.

FYI, if you give enough pressure to turd, it turns into diamond.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Vin

I'm sure there were plenty of commuter train naysayers like yourself before GO went so widespread. Good thing the decision makers did not cave to them back then. Let's hope better informed people here can support the WCE expansion in the longer term.

FYI, if you give enough pressure to turd, it turns into diamond.

A lot of people naysayed OceanGate too. They were entirely correct. BC and TransLink have run the numbers over and over again - each time, the express bus option with lanes is good value for money and should've been done yesterday, while upgrading the interurban is a very expensive solution in search of a problem. They're already the well-informed ones.

You can turn any kind of carbon into diamonds with enough pressure. Doesn't mean you should spend all day playing with turds when there's less shitty alternatives.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Well... i admit I was a little tongue in cheek and yeah... that really is the only place you should put a station, given the tracks are already there. It just seems that Abby just doesn't want anything. Like... is Abby even REALLY petitioning for a WCE? And would they be willing to CREATE an actual downtown there?

Right now, pretty much all of South Fraser Way is "downtown" and a rail station would would provide a central point to rally around.

Well, without centralized transportation hubs for far too long, especially after Canadians discovered the use of automobiles, many towns and cities are now so spread out with their vast "urban sprawls". That's why we need to steer away from that and again centralize developments around traditional town centres. Luckily our forebears already set up transport hubs for future developments, which outdated planners had been neglecting for so long. With the climate crisis, highway congestions, etc, there is now a movement to bring that all back, such as the 15-minute city concept.

In Europe, many towns are rather compact, and they continue to be so even further away from the centre. However, without the North American style sprawl, once you get out of town you are essentially surrounded by agricultural lands and forests which are so vital to our food production and health. We should be emulating that.

[officedweller]

Amtrak Cascades Service Development Plan
https://wsdot.wa.gov/construction-planni...amtrak-cascades-service-development-plan

Washington State DOT outlines possibilities for expansion of Amtrak Cascades service
https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/...or-expansion-of-amtrak-cascades-service/

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Amtrak Cascades Service Development Plan
https://wsdot.wa.gov/construction-planni...amtrak-cascades-service-development-plan

Washington State DOT outlines possibilities for expansion of Amtrak Cascades service
https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/...or-expansion-of-amtrak-cascades-service/

This excerpt speaks volumes (emphasis mine)

Seattle-Bellingham Rail Service: More train trips to Vancouver, BC are not viable without support from Canadian partners. However, additional trains to Bellingham, with connecting buses across the border could capture most of the ridership between Seattle and Vancouver, BC and should be analyzed further if infrastructure improvements in Canada become a challenge.

Don't get me wrong... I'd even welcome more frequency to Bellingham... along with timed bus connections... I just think that the road border is too much of a liability for the buses to make the connection worthwhile. Bellingham would greatly benefit though.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Don't get me wrong... I'd even welcome more frequency to Bellingham... along with timed bus connections... I just think that the road border is too much of a liability for the buses to make the connection worthwhile. Bellingham would greatly benefit though.

Reading deeper into the report, it seems like the only infrastructure requirement they think is absolutely required north of 49 is half a mile of controlled siding in White Rock. I haven't fully explored the ramifications of what that might mean (and it's not extremely clear in the report either), but that's just 800 metres of double tracking. It's also possible that if it happens in lockstep with relocating the BNSF line away from the White Rock waterfront it's extremely trivial.

[ssiguy]

Just 3 days ago, GO Rail has stated that starting in May/24, the number of GO rail trips will increase by a whopping 300 trips per week. This is in addition to the 2,000 they already run. To put that into perspective, the WCE only runs 50 trips per week in total.

They can do this without having to discuss it with CP/CN because GO was smart enough to buy up huge swaths of track from the freight companies decades ago. At the time, GO didn't need all those lines but knew they would in the future and now they are reaping benefits of that long-term planning. Vancouver may not need them now but in 20 or 30 years they will have wished they followed Toronto's lead and done the same thing.

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Just 3 days ago, GO Rail has stated that starting in May/24, the number of GO rail trips will increase by a whopping 300 trips per week. This is in addition to the 2,000 they already run. To put that into perspective, the WCE only runs 50 trips per week in total.

They can do this without having to discuss it with CP/CN because GO was smart enough to buy up huge swaths of track from the freight companies decades ago. At the time, GO didn't need all those lines but knew they would in the future and now they are reaping benefits of that long-term planning. Vancouver may not need them now but in 20 or 30 years they will have wished they followed Toronto's lead and done the same thing.

And the only reason they were able to purchase those tracks is because they weren't important enough for the freight companies to keep. There is zero chance that much of the remaining main line in Metro Vancouver is going to be surplus to CP/CN so your these on long-term planning is pointless.

The only way you'll ever see commuter rail into Vancouver proper is tunneled.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

They can do this without having to discuss it with CP/CN because GO was smart enough to buy up huge swaths of track from the freight companies decades ago. At the time, GO didn't need all those lines but knew they would in the future and now they are reaping benefits of that long-term planning. Vancouver may not need them now but in 20 or 30 years they will have wished they followed Toronto's lead and done the same thing.

We've had this discussion before. Vancouver has the biggest port in the country vs Toronto's is tiny in comparison. The rail network here is busy with freight while Toronto's is not, so our rail lines aren't for sale. Plus where our rail lines travel is not where passengers want to go.

This is not an apples to apples comparison - it's more like apples to golden retrievers.

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by Sheba

We've had this discussion before. Vancouver has the biggest port in the country vs Toronto's is tiny in comparison. The rail network here is busy with freight while Toronto's is not, so our rail lines aren't for sale. Plus where our rail lines travel is not where passengers want to go.

This is not an apples to apples comparison - it's more like apples to golden retrievers.

The logical progression of this thought process is for the provincial government to buy CN/CP, make them give up their rail corridors and then sell the remaining assets.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Sheba

We've had this discussion before. Vancouver has the biggest port in the country vs Toronto's is tiny in comparison. The rail network here is busy with freight while Toronto's is not, so our rail lines aren't for sale. Plus where our rail lines travel is not where passengers want to go.

This is not an apples to apples comparison - it's more like apples to golden retrievers.

We can create dedicated commuter train lines beside existing freight lines for the busiest routes. It takes commitment.

Also discussed many times: it is not true that "our rail lines travel is not where passengers want to go".

In fact, south of the Fraser, most town/city/industrial centres with high concentration of population or work/services have railway lines that run right through them. Hope, Chilliwack, Abbotsford, Fort Langley, Walnut Grove, Bridgeview (Surrey).

Of course, north of the Fraser, we have Mission, Maple Ridge, Pitt Meadows, Port Coquitlam, Coquitlam Central, Port Moody, Brentwood Town Centre (Burnaby), New Westminster and Vancouver proper. Some of the mentioned are already currently served by WCE but with lots of room for expansion.

I am not even including Richmond, White Rock, Londsdale Quay (North Vancouver) and Ambleside (West Vancouver) which can easily have commuter trains running along non-busy freight lines, as well as stations that can be conveniently located at the town centres.

Therefore, it is an utter lie to say that our rail does not serve where people want to go. Even if passengers want to go further from these town centres, they can always opt to get there with an efficient and reliable shuttle bus service (funding can be transferred from long-distance buses to such services) in the immediate districts, or even via car-share services such as Evo or Modo around the stations. In fact, our railway lines can serve way better than Toronto, but only if we, as well as the politicians, have the heart and will to move this forward.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Just 3 days ago, GO Rail has stated that starting in May/24, the number of GO rail trips will increase by a whopping 300 trips per week. This is in addition to the 2,000 they already run. To put that into perspective, the WCE only runs 50 trips per week in total.

They can do this without having to discuss it with CP/CN because GO was smart enough to buy up huge swaths of track from the freight companies decades ago. At the time, GO didn't need all those lines but knew they would in the future and now they are reaping benefits of that long-term planning. Vancouver may not need them now but in 20 or 30 years they will have wished they followed Toronto's lead and done the same thing.

We can see who has more foresight. No wonder Toronto remains the powerhouse of this country. It all boils down to the mentality of the people.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

The logical progression of this thought process is for the provincial government to buy CN/CP, make them give up their rail corridors and then sell the remaining assets.

https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/CP

Market Cap (intraday): 78.278B

https://www.bcbudget.gov.bc.ca/2024/pdf/2024_Budget_and_Fiscal_Plan.pdf

2023/24 Total Revenue: 77.3B

If we all work just a little harder it's definitely doable!

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by Vin

We can create dedicated commuter train lines beside existing freight lines for the busiest routes. It takes commitment.

It also takes a shedload of money to buy up land beside existing freight lines, where that land even exists to buy -- it doesn't along part of the rails through New Westminster, for example. And what do you do about spurs and overpasses and underpasses and existing buildings? Creating a whole new train line next to existing ones is nigh impossible for a huge number of reasons.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Here's the current population/jobs density of the SoF region as compared to transit options; the sharp-eyed poster will note that urban growth has trended toward the SkyTrain/BRT corridors and away from the interurban.

Nor does it serve downtown Surrey, nor Walnut Grove, nor Langley Township, nor Fort Langley; it does serve Gloucester Industrial Park, but one office sprawl does not a train line make. That and its long, windy (i.e. SLOW) nature makes it highly unattractive to most commuters, and bus shuttles to/from it would just be throwing good money after bad.

Ditto the North Shore, ditto White Rock, ditto the WCE: the time for the freight lines' usefulness as Metro Vancouver's people movers has come and gone. New billion-dollar ROWs are needed instead, and even then, SkyTrain expansion will always come before those.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

you know, all this talk about it is always funny.

over 100yrs ago, when a 2nd rail corridor into the city was needed, 2 companies had to create a partnership, to dig a huge trench into the city.

why would building more railways, today, be any easier than over 100yrs ago?

hint; it isnt. we have the railways we have, and that isnt changing. period. not unless we build something above, or below the ground.